Help with Vems idle issue and cold start (logs)

Discuss VEMS and other standalone ECUs

Re: Help with Vems idle issue and cold start (logs)

Postby morris400 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:00 pm

I dont normally use TBS other then to see what it recommends. But I decided this time to use it as it was lowering my VE table during crusing area to almost what I would have. About a 10% drop across the board.

I also did rescale the VE. Going up by 10s to 100map then 20s going to 220map. I was not able to run this VE as Vems shit the bed and I could not even start the damn car after warm. so i reverted back to my ols 16.4 config and still struggled to start the car. warm start is not working, i have to flood clear everytime right now.

I will post up the logs from the crusing I did so you can see them. I have to break up the log as it 60min long.

as for the injectors firing at cranking, ive not yet seen a i5 config or log that has them firing indivually. all the configs ive seen are firing simultaneously.

im really thinking of starting from scratch and moving the injector settings from 3.4 req to 4.6 req. im just trying to rule out this as the issue. for the 630cc injectors, 4.6 is the req fuel but mins has always been set to 3.4.
2016 VW Jetta 1.4T Daily Driver Stock.
1994 UrS4 - K24 7400 Vems moving to EFI Experss tune.
2001 B5 S4 Stg 3- ( gone! Dropped valve cyl 4)

IF YOU CANT STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS...FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM!
User avatar
morris400
 
Posts: 235
Joined: May 10, 2013
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Help with Vems idle issue and cold start (logs)

Postby morris400 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:43 pm

So I deleted the #18 config mainly cause it was not good and I'd rather forget it happen lol. Took the car out today with the reverted 16.4 config. The VE table was rescaled and the lambda table was redone as per your recommended settings.

As an idiot I forgot to turn off ego but no worries. I was more worried about getting the AE I little better which I think I did. So I started out with the dtps the way it always was 4 - 100% and 26 - 198. I then set the rpm to 100 across. This did not work. So I drove a bit and then changed it to dtps 4 -20% and 50 - 88%. This made a world of difference. The jerkhness was minimal and the transition on and off throttle was smooth. I do think I had some lean spots...so I'll be looking in the log to see and ritchen the dtps from there.

Starting is another problem...I do believe I've narrowed it down to either the afterstart eh or warmup en. Car started on 2 starts today. I'm going to look back and see what setting I had it at when I got it to 1 start.

I also need to figure out the warm start. For this i took a look at my log and noticed that my normal MAT when driving and at cold start was around 10c but on hot start its 60c +/- 5c. I looked at the MAT/TPS enrichment and at that temp the table drops from 100 to 94. Not sure how big of an issue that is...I bumped it up to 100 for the warm start area and will test in a few minutes to see. I have fingers crossed...maybe it's not enough air and the fuel gets dumped and wont fire up? Hints the fuel smell and the need to flood clear after 1 attempt? Again I'm spit balling here.

I will attach the log and the config from today. I think this it the best config to date.

1 config that i used today.
1 log from todays run. covering cold start, idle , drive AE changes and drive again.
2 log from warm start 45 mins after parked. cant sort this out.

Thanks Chris for your help on the AE, it really made a difference. Looking forward to see what your thoughts on this config.
Attachments
v3.3_n002178-2018.12.23-12.05.41.vemslog
(716.5 KiB) Downloaded 64 times
v3.3_n002178-2018.12.23-10.36.37.vemslog
(3.68 MiB) Downloaded 62 times
kenny # 16.4.4 Rescaled VE, new lambda, EGO on,.vemscfg
(12.97 KiB) Downloaded 72 times
2016 VW Jetta 1.4T Daily Driver Stock.
1994 UrS4 - K24 7400 Vems moving to EFI Experss tune.
2001 B5 S4 Stg 3- ( gone! Dropped valve cyl 4)

IF YOU CANT STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS...FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM!
User avatar
morris400
 
Posts: 235
Joined: May 10, 2013
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Help with Vems idle issue and cold start (logs)

Postby PRY4SNO » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:11 pm

Kenny how much different is your set up than Necails? Might be worth having a gander at his settings...
Find me on Instagram @pry4sno

|| 2010 Golf Sportwagen TDI /// Farmenwagen
|| 1992 80 quattro 20v /// Eventual AAN'd Winter Sled
|| 1990 Coupe quattro /// Because Racecar

|| Spare parts for sale
User avatar
PRY4SNO
 
Posts: 2176
Joined: Mar 3, 2013
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Help with Vems idle issue and cold start (logs)

Postby morris400 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:44 pm

Dustin, I fired you a text.

Do i did some brain storming today...and I'm wondering if i hector o rings could be my issue...so I took my spare deka ( I have 6) and compared it to my stock injector o rings and the deka I'd visably smaller. I stuck the deka and the OEM side by side into my spare fuel rail and IM. They were both tight but the OEM was tighter and much harder to get out once in. ( no jokes gents lol)

I did some research and found out the deka 630cc had an option of 11mm or 14mm o ring. Thinking I have the 11s. I'm going to get a set of new larger orings for the injectors. Thoughts?

There is no leak externally I can see...no wet spots and fuel around the injectors. Could it be leaking on the inside causing my hard warm start?
2016 VW Jetta 1.4T Daily Driver Stock.
1994 UrS4 - K24 7400 Vems moving to EFI Experss tune.
2001 B5 S4 Stg 3- ( gone! Dropped valve cyl 4)

IF YOU CANT STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS...FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM!
User avatar
morris400
 
Posts: 235
Joined: May 10, 2013
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Help with Vems idle issue and cold start (logs)

Postby morris400 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:41 pm

Image

So stock O Rings measure 14.9mm OD and 7.8mm ID.
And Deka O Rings measure 14.3mm OD and 7.8mm ID.

I've read .6mm is alot when talking about Injectors. Could this be the source of all my problems right now?....well not all but some ? Lol
2016 VW Jetta 1.4T Daily Driver Stock.
1994 UrS4 - K24 7400 Vems moving to EFI Experss tune.
2001 B5 S4 Stg 3- ( gone! Dropped valve cyl 4)

IF YOU CANT STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS...FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM!
User avatar
morris400
 
Posts: 235
Joined: May 10, 2013
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Help with Vems idle issue and cold start (logs)

Postby morris400 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:30 pm

Going to take a break from tuning. Running the attached config right now which does runs well enough for now. Really want to focus on the warm start issue.

On warm start it just cranks and cranks cranks and I smell fuel. Req a flood clear to start. So it flooding lol. With this and checking my fueling EN...its not flooding on crank or afterstart. So this leads me to think its flooding when I shut off the car.

Going to pull the plugs and check them...and then pull the rail and injectors, replace the orings with OEM size as Deka was .6mm smaller.

I may also replace the fuel pressure regulator at the same time.

Merry Xmas gents.

Kenny.
2016 VW Jetta 1.4T Daily Driver Stock.
1994 UrS4 - K24 7400 Vems moving to EFI Experss tune.
2001 B5 S4 Stg 3- ( gone! Dropped valve cyl 4)

IF YOU CANT STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS...FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM!
User avatar
morris400
 
Posts: 235
Joined: May 10, 2013
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Help with Vems idle issue and cold start (logs)

Postby morris400 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:13 pm

gave her 1 more shot, i raised the warm up en 10% all over in hops that that will help keep that car running on 1 start as the car does start but dies. so Crank EN seems good. on cold start today...1 start good to go. (WIN)

i also lowered the crank EN at warm (60c+) to see if it will start with less fuel. i was pushing 125%+ at that temp. so i lowered it to around 100%... and kept the Crank VE at 75. warm start today with 69c coolant...1 start 4 sec crank fired up a little rough but did start and keep idle. i think just a bump fo fuel more and i should have it!

all in all...its progress. im still getting the lean spikes on throttle, how ever i think its only under vac not boost. any thoughts here. i have the RPM AE at baseline 100. and im going to add to the Dtps enrichments and see if that helps, Chris i know ypu said it should. im running your dTPS settings and what do you think based on my log, bump up the dTPS at 4v 10v 20v ?

At this point im going to leave the injectors, unless i go back in progress lol.

log attached is of the lean spikes. you can see a quick dip as dTPS hits then a spike then level. these were all under vac and no more then 50% throttle.

current config attached as well.
Attachments
lean spike under vac.vemslog
(44.5 KiB) Downloaded 70 times
kenny # 16.4.6 idle up to 51, minimap to 34. no change from 16.4.5.vemscfg
(12.97 KiB) Downloaded 69 times
2016 VW Jetta 1.4T Daily Driver Stock.
1994 UrS4 - K24 7400 Vems moving to EFI Experss tune.
2001 B5 S4 Stg 3- ( gone! Dropped valve cyl 4)

IF YOU CANT STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS...FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM!
User avatar
morris400
 
Posts: 235
Joined: May 10, 2013
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Help with Vems idle issue and cold start (logs)

Postby morris400 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:13 pm

So pulled the plugs today...they look carbon fouled. Shows I'm running rich...probably to rich. I never changed and config crank settings and today was not able to get a warm start. Cold start was 2 starts. So I'm again lost. This Vems ECU is kicking my ass. I played around with the AE a bit today but was not able to stop the lean spikes. My VE seems ok. Not perfect but no dips or cliffs and it's pretty close (with in 5/10%) of corrected ego VE. Only thing I changed today was idle timing from 15 to 12 which helped my idle. Seemed to hurt my starting though.
2016 VW Jetta 1.4T Daily Driver Stock.
1994 UrS4 - K24 7400 Vems moving to EFI Experss tune.
2001 B5 S4 Stg 3- ( gone! Dropped valve cyl 4)

IF YOU CANT STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS...FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM!
User avatar
morris400
 
Posts: 235
Joined: May 10, 2013
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Help with Vems idle issue and cold start (logs)

Postby ChrisAudi80 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:56 am

morris400 wrote:gave her 1 more shot, i raised the warm up en 10% all over in hops that that will help keep that car running on 1 start as the car does start but dies. so Crank EN seems good. on cold start today...1 start good to go. (WIN)

i also lowered the crank EN at warm (60c+) to see if it will start with less fuel. i was pushing 125%+ at that temp. so i lowered it to around 100%... and kept the Crank VE at 75. warm start today with 69c coolant...1 start 4 sec crank fired up a little rough but did start and keep idle. i think just a bump fo fuel more and i should have it!

all in all...its progress. im still getting the lean spikes on throttle, how ever i think its only under vac not boost. any thoughts here. i have the RPM AE at baseline 100. and im going to add to the Dtps enrichments and see if that helps, Chris i know ypu said it should. im running your dTPS settings and what do you think based on my log, bump up the dTPS at 4v 10v 20v ?

At this point im going to leave the injectors, unless i go back in progress lol.

log attached is of the lean spikes. you can see a quick dip as dTPS hits then a spike then level. these were all under vac and no more then 50% throttle.

current config attached as well.


Kenny, I have not had time to look at your logs. Been flat out on my own car for the last week. Loads of rewiring work.

Yes, put RPM AE at 100 base then just play with dTPS. You will still have a slight lean peak on tip in, but not later. You can take care of that with fade out time. Like I said before. Go for an easy drive. Sit in 3rd @ 3000, then apply throttle (hold for 5 to 6secs!), from a lowest dTPS (4 for you) to highest, 80. Look at the log and add AE % so there is minimal lean peak.

It does not surprise me your plugs are carboned up. I think that is from the time you had 8 ms of primepulse. All the cold starts do not help either.
This is why I asked you to log from start up and letting it idle until warm. That way you dial in idle VE and warm up EN. After that, work on afterstart. I think you have cranking EN down.
I aim for 0.87-0.9 lambda when totally cold, which is 28c for me, ramping up to 1.0 at 77c.

Another issue we have discussed before is your EGO control enabling settings. You turn on EGO control at 26c coolant temp. WAY too low. That is why I asked you to set it at at least 70c. EGO will fight with warm up EN. You said this caused some problem, but don't remember what.
96 S6 auto
95 80Q AEB VEMS
ChrisAudi80
 
Posts: 833
Joined: Mar 2, 2013
Location: Bangkok, Thailand

Re: Help with Vems idle issue and cold start (logs)

Postby morris400 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:54 pm

No worries man. Re wiring can be a bitch. I definitely need to play with that dTPS. Is it normal to have lean spikes? I have the rpm set to 100 and still have the spikes. I will add more enrichment but I'm not sure how much to add...and also the fadeout time...I understand longer makes the enrichment last longer but everyone I've talked to has a much lower fadeout then me... .27 or lower.

One of the logs I posted starts from cold and goes to warm up. Takes about 10-15 mins to get completely warm...with ego off. During this process the lambda is .80 so I'm assuming my warmup is to rich? I have been doing all my startup with ego off and letting it idle warm and logging. It's always really rich .80 to .84 until after 70c then it comes up a bit to .87 to .90. I have cleaned off some of the carbon on the plugs and also got a new set as well.

With ego on at 80c I had issues with idle for some reason...coming on and off. But of late I've had ego completely off and been just going off VE table. Idle is stable for vems.

The spikes are my concern. If I'm coasting st 30% throttle and slowly go 100% (say 1 sec slow press from 30% to 100%) I get perfect lambda with no spike. It only when going from 0% throttle and up I get the spikes.
2016 VW Jetta 1.4T Daily Driver Stock.
1994 UrS4 - K24 7400 Vems moving to EFI Experss tune.
2001 B5 S4 Stg 3- ( gone! Dropped valve cyl 4)

IF YOU CANT STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS...FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM!
User avatar
morris400
 
Posts: 235
Joined: May 10, 2013
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Help with Vems idle issue and cold start (logs)

Postby ChrisAudi80 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:14 am

morris400 wrote:No worries man. Re wiring can be a bitch. I definitely need to play with that dTPS. Is it normal to have lean spikes? I have the rpm set to 100 and still have the spikes. I will add more enrichment but I'm not sure how much to add...and also the fadeout time...I understand longer makes the enrichment last longer but everyone I've talked to has a much lower fadeout then me... .27 or lower.

One of the logs I posted starts from cold and goes to warm up. Takes about 10-15 mins to get completely warm...with ego off. During this process the lambda is .80 so I'm assuming my warmup is to rich? I have been doing all my startup with ego off and letting it idle warm and logging. It's always really rich .80 to .84 until after 70c then it comes up a bit to .87 to .90. I have cleaned off some of the carbon on the plugs and also got a new set as well.

With ego on at 80c I had issues with idle for some reason...coming on and off. But of late I've had ego completely off and been just going off VE table. Idle is stable for vems.

The spikes are my concern. If I'm coasting st 30% throttle and slowly go 100% (say 1 sec slow press from 30% to 100%) I get perfect lambda with no spike. It only when going from 0% throttle and up I get the spikes.


0.80 is a bit on the rich side for pump gas. You can reduce that to 0.87-0.90.

What you could try it to turn off overrun fuel cut. That is why you have lean spikes coming back on throttle. Same here. The reason others have short fadeout time is probably because of newer FW. After 1.2.20 AE reaction time was much faster. Old reaction is like 100ms, new 25ms IIRC.

Remember that when coming out of overrun cut, the port walls have been sucked dry so you need a little more AE %. Just keep increasing AE %. You will see lambda dip hard (down to 0.75 or 0.80) then recover.

Are you 100% sure your TPS sensor is OK?
96 S6 auto
95 80Q AEB VEMS
ChrisAudi80
 
Posts: 833
Joined: Mar 2, 2013
Location: Bangkok, Thailand

Re: Help with Vems idle issue and cold start (logs)

Postby morris400 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:54 pm

I've tried 2 different TPS sensors I'm 100% sure it's good to go. I'm pretty sure I had after run fuel cut off.

I'm made a change in my tuning, I've moved away from vems and am waiting on my motronic ecu from Marc.

The time is just not there for me to be able to keep tuning and logging. It was fun while it lasted but standalone is not for me.

Thanks to everyone who's helped me in the last few months, especially you Chris.
2016 VW Jetta 1.4T Daily Driver Stock.
1994 UrS4 - K24 7400 Vems moving to EFI Experss tune.
2001 B5 S4 Stg 3- ( gone! Dropped valve cyl 4)

IF YOU CANT STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS...FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM!
User avatar
morris400
 
Posts: 235
Joined: May 10, 2013
Location: Alberta, Canada

Previous

Return to Standalone Engine Management

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests