T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:03 am

Thanks!

It's funny that your stud locations work becuase I had some of this stuff made (the lower plate in particular) before with different dimensions than yours for the studs and it fit well lol.

That's not a huge concern right now though. I can change that at any point, although it will affect stress analysis of that plate. Anyway, I will try to get more measurements when I see the car again this Thursday.

It's looking more feasible now. Just trying to compare adjustability to what's currently available.
-Chris

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:32 am

Looks like from the centered position, I am able to achieve 1.96 degrees toward the more positive camber direction and 1.65 degrees toward the negative direction so far. I just came up with a new spin on the design though which will help us keep all of the adjustability and as much travel as possible.
-Chris

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby EDIGREG » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:42 am

FYI, you can retain about 1/4" more travel by letting the spring hat rest on the tapered edge on the top of the Bilstein shaft. I turned a bit of material off the hat on the lathe

Image

Image
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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby uberaudi » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:12 am

Image

Kind of a shitty pic, but you can see the radial bearing in the top cap, then the 3/4" spherical on top. Mine don't however have any means for adjusting castor, yet.
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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:55 pm

Thanks Ed. I will be looking into this more.

uberaudi, make your next point of education in that program to learn how to take a section view. That will help a lot! Until then, I can't really tell what you have going on there.
-Chris

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby uberaudi » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:00 pm

Yeah I should of done that to begin with!

How's this?
Image

The blue parts are just 1018 while the orange is 6061. Note that the strut drawn is a 5000 strut, not a 20vt, but the steps and diameters are the same between them. Well, except for the main shaft.
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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:02 am

uberaudi wrote:Yeah I should of done that to begin with!

How's this?
Image

The blue parts are just 1018 while the orange is 6061. Note that the strut drawn is a 5000 strut, not a 20vt, but the steps and diameters are the same between them. Well, except for the main shaft.


Much better, I can tell what's going on now for the most part :)

Is that not still just loading the spherical bearing though? I don't see how you are taking any of the load off of it.
-Chris

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:10 am

Things are looking more and more feasible by the minute. So far, this one sacrifices nothing. It should even be relatively cost effective to have made compared to some other ideas I had. Still lots to sort out and perfect, but it's much closer than ever before.

Strut Mount Progress 7.JPG
Strut Mount Progress 7.JPG (47.84 KiB) Viewed 6083 times


Strut Mount Progress 6.JPG
Strut Mount Progress 6.JPG (53.93 KiB) Viewed 6083 times


Strut Mount Progress 5.JPG
Strut Mount Progress 5.JPG (46.92 KiB) Viewed 6083 times
-Chris

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby uberaudi » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:08 am

Cool idea on the eccentric castor adjustment, haven't seen that before. How do you lock it down?

When I was talking about taking load off the spherical bearing I was thinking more radially, not axially. Plus having a sealed bearing is important when your car is exposed to different weather extremes, and I could see longevity becoming an issue otherwise. It also provides bind free adjustments.

It's looking really good though Chris, glad you took this project under your wing!
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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:20 pm

uberaudi wrote:Cool idea on the eccentric castor adjustment, haven't seen that before. How do you lock it down?

When I was talking about taking load off the spherical bearing I was thinking more radially, not axially. Plus having a sealed bearing is important when your car is exposed to different weather extremes, and I could see longevity becoming an issue otherwise. It also provides bind free adjustments.

It's looking really good though Chris, glad you took this project under your wing!


You lock it down the same way you do for camber. Just torque the bolts.

Even if you are talking about radial load on the spherical bearing, I don't see how your design is preventing that. Either way, spherical bearings are much stronger in radial loading than they are in axial. This size bearing can typically handle 6-7,000 lbs axially, but 35-45,000 lbs radially! That's for a quality, Made-in-USA bearing though ;)

Weather-proofing is something I will have to look into. For now, know that the design is made to allow for easy hot-swapping of bearings if needed :)
-Chris

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:04 am

EDIGREG wrote:FYI, you can retain about 1/4" more travel by letting the spring hat rest on the tapered edge on the top of the Bilstein shaft. I turned a bit of material off the hat on the lathe

Image

Image


Ed, are those Bicknell hats? They look even lower profile. I think the gland nut is actually going to limit whether what you did there is worth a damn or not. Maybe not though depending on where the strut bottoms out internally and if the Bicknell spring retainer ID is bored out or not.

Pic for reference:

Strut Mount Progress 8.JPG
Strut Mount Progress 8.JPG (45.49 KiB) Viewed 6051 times
-Chris

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:16 am

I'd now consider this 95% of the way there. I know it will work now. I just need to analyze it, hone in on precise dimensions, do some product definition (make drawings and define design intent), and have them prototyped. First in plastic, then in metal once functionality is confirmed.

Now off I go to learn how the structural analysis tools work in Solid Edge... :wave:

Strut Mount Progress 9.JPG
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Strut Mount Progress 10.JPG
Strut Mount Progress 10.JPG (51.14 KiB) Viewed 6049 times


Strut Mount Progress 11.JPG
Strut Mount Progress 11.JPG (58.24 KiB) Viewed 6049 times



Who is down to test functionality of the plastic prototypes? It would require fitting them up and running them through the various positions, taking some more measurements, etc. Please only apply if you can actually get accurate measurements of things like hood clearance, strut angle, etc. :beer:
-Chris

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby EDIGREG » Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:20 am

Here are the hats... they are very low profile. If I remember correctly, the ID is not correct for Bilstein, but once modified slightly on the lathe they fit perfectly. https://technotoytuning.com/universal/p ... 2mm-center

I don't think it's possible to have the hat interfere with the gland nut. I'm pretty certain the Bilstein will hit its internal bump stop before that can happen, plus I think the spring would be fully compressed before that happened as well. We're not exactly running long springs here
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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby EDIGREG » Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:26 am

Something like this would be ideal for the needle bearing to keep it away from the elements. They don't list the dimensions of these on the site though so I have no idea how well they'd fit. Looks like you'd have to run a spacer between the needle bearing and spherical bearing to space them out a bit. https://technotoytuning.com/toyota/mx32 ... hat-system
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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:47 pm

Thanks for the info Ed. If I remember correctly, the Bilstein either can't interfere with the Bicknell or it's very close to it. I would love to use a hat as low profile as that, but you really aren't gaining anything once the strut is able to bottom out. Running one as low profile as that isn't possible with my design unless I sacrifice some adjustability.

Also, I don't see any point in running a needle bearing when you already have that degree of freedom available in the spherical bearing. The strength of those hats is also a concern. They are certainly compromised compared to the Bicknells and especially the A1.

I've got family obligations this weekend so progress will not be made, but I did manage to stop by my parts stash and get a stock lower plate to verify measurements from :) I also grabbed spare Bicknell and A1 hats I had.
-Chris

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:04 pm

Someone get hood to strut top measurements for me please!

If you have to, use a piece of play doh or something similar to close the hood on! (Thanks for the idea Corey H.)
-Chris

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby EDIGREG » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:48 pm

In my experience the spherical bearing does not rotate freely enough to prevent binding during steering.

Some people also argue that running a needle bearing allows the springs to compress more smoothly/linearly. Not sure I buy that but I can see the argument.
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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:45 pm

The springs will certainly tend to want to rotate a little bit when being compressed, but it isn't significant in my experience.

On the ability of the bearing to rotate, I can see that potentially happening because these bearings are definitely packed in there tightly. However, it's nothing a regular old needle bearing between the spring and top hat wouldn't fix. Or between the top of the top hat and the sleeve for the spherical bearing interface with the strut.

I would use the hats you linked, but they simply wont work with my design if you're going for max travel and adjustability.
-Chris

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby EDIGREG » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:51 pm

loxxrider wrote:However, it's nothing a regular old needle bearing between the spring and top hat wouldn't fix. Or between the top of the top hat and the sleeve for the spherical bearing interface with the strut.


The former is exactly what I did and what most people do. The advantage to running it recessed in the hat (or somewhere like that) is that it is not exposed to the elements, and is therefore zero maintenance.
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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:54 pm

That's a valid concern. I will see about putting one on top of the hat (or recessed in). I'm not sure how much it would really help though unless you really pack it with a lot of grease.
-Chris

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby Justin517 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:57 pm

I just aligned mine, stock min/max specs are on there.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1435456586.887700.jpg
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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:27 pm

Thanks! That's the max allowable from the factory right?

Kevin has kindly gotten me hood clearance measurements, so progress can resume :)
-Chris

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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby Justin517 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:55 am

That is just the factory spec range, so in theory test that is what the adjustment should be, but at this point it should just be treated as a target if the factory adjustment can get you there.


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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby loxxrider » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:51 am

Progress has been made!

I took very good measurements of the strut tower bolt pattern (it was pretty close to the one you gave me in your CAD files Nick), the Bicknell hat (you got a little lazy on that one ;) ), and hood clearance (thanks Kevin!). From those measurements, I was able to come to a few conclusions.

1) The Bicknell hat has clearance for the Bilstein gland nut when the strut is all the way compressed. Woo! I thought that's what I remembered, but now I'm 100% sure of this.

Bicknell to Gland Nut Clearance.JPG
Bicknell to Gland Nut Clearance.JPG (44.78 KiB) Viewed 5746 times


2) This design really does maximize strut placement with respect to hood clearance. I used Kevin's more conservative values (with the hood lining in instead of out) and we end up with just enough clearance in the middle of the adjustment range. If you want more camber, there is more room, but if you want to adjust in the positive direction, a spacer may be required. There is already a spacer used in the design to allow proper contact between the bearing and the top hat, so this can be made thicker for those wanting more adjustment in the positive direction.

Mind you, those hood clearance measurements were taken from a 200, so you UrS guys are on your own if it doesn't clear in your cars. Again, the fix is a simple spacer. It may be possible to just use some washers to space it out if needed in fact.

Hood Clearance.JPG
Hood Clearance.JPG (42.52 KiB) Viewed 5746 times


3) Nick, I'm not sure how much your design which replicates the stock mount, but gets rid of the stock spring perch, etc. raises the strut position in the body, but this design should raise it at least 0.4" more than what is possible with your setup. So that's good news!

Mounting height difference vs Nicks.JPG
Mounting height difference vs Nicks.JPG (59.38 KiB) Viewed 5746 times


4) I haven't measured the entire extent of adjustment yet, but it's a LOT more than stock.

5) Preliminary FEA analysis shows the design to be sound. I will detail this later.

6) I need to get started on product definition and start talking to someone about rapid prototyping the parts and also someone to machine them once we have proof of concept.

7) I need testers! Preferably at least one 200 20v and one UrS4.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
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Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

Postby Aktapod » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:25 pm

Wow! That was pretty quick!

You'll probably be okay with respect to hood clearance for two reasons: firstly, the hood seemed to have a slight dome-shaped profile, so, since the numbers I gave you are around the perimeter, you probably have a little more room to play with towards the center.

Secondly, I measured vertically with respect to the car, not perpendicularly to the strut mount plate, so (unless you already took this into account) that 'ceiling' could be shifted slightly up and out towards the fender.

Keep up the good work!
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