Basic 07K Facts?

Transplanting the new VW 5cylinder

Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby glibobbo21 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:39 pm

only the TTRS is DI
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Mcstiff » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:24 pm

So back to weight, Hank posted the pic of The Blue Pill's engine on the scale at ~350# with accessories and 4# of chain. I'm unconcerned with the clutch and FW as every engine will have one and weights vary. Pretty cool when you consider that the 3.0TFSI is an alloy block and claimed to be 416# by Audi (with clutch? Wet?). I'd have guessed that the alloy block would have offset the extra size, regardless of the AWIC and compressor (I guess 1/5th additional piston, rod, valvetrain, injector, head, block, intake, and exhaust makes up for most of the delta. Imperfectly, 5/6*416=346).

Hank wrote:A couple of revisions to the setup required a motor pull which afforded us the opportunity to weigh a full weight/dressed motor with EVERYTHING attached, ie sensors, radiator hoses, turbo, accessories, belts, water, motor mounts, oil filter, etc. Unfortunately we had drained the oil, but not the water out of the block. There is also 4 pounds of chain in that weight.

Image

Yes, 349 pounds. 383 with a steel flywheel and 707 saches pressure plate. TTRS is advertised at 403 pounds with clutch/flywheel, but that also includes a AC pump(but doesn't include a PS pump). I'll have a full weight 7a on the scales in a few.

Audi puts the ABZ at 420lbs with pressure plates from what I have seen and the chain driven b6 and b7s are 430lbs dressed dry. 2.7tt is a 455lb motor with the flywheel/pressure plate


Take home message? 5 cylinder displacement and flow with 4 cylinder weight!

Hank
Last edited by Mcstiff on Sat May 03, 2014 3:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby pete82 » Sat May 03, 2014 3:06 pm

Comparing one of these to an aan, a few questions

How much further back is the front of a 07k engine to an aan?
when bolted to the box is the back of the engine inline with the box or does it over hang?
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Colin2750 » Sun May 04, 2014 11:47 am

pete82 wrote:Comparing one of these to an aan, a few questions

How much further back is the front of a 07k engine to an aan?
when bolted to the box is the back of the engine inline with the box or does it over hang?



I don't recall exact numbers but I'd say it's around 4 inches shorter? It definitely opens up a lot of room up front, as well as being able to pull the motor with the core support still on the car, which makes removing the engine a less-than-an-hour affair if you know what you're doing, I've done it in close to 45 minutes with a second person helping.
When bolted to the trans the timing cover and vacuum pump on the back of the head does hang over the trans probably 3 inches.
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby pete82 » Sun May 04, 2014 11:52 am

Thanks for the reply. That helps out a lot.
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby pete82 » Sun May 25, 2014 9:57 pm

Anyone know a good source of an engine and what to roughly pay? Since last year looking on ebay the prices have gone up from around the $4-500 mark with low milage to $6-700 with a hell of a lot more milage and the usual ebay auctions with 06 07 08 09 etc for the years so I can't tell what i'm getting as i've read its an 08 or newer I need.

Anyway of knowing from the outside if its the better crank?
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby MHCAudi200t » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:45 am

Guys,

I thought this was a good read. I came across it while searching for an 07k.

http://m.rennlist.com/rennforums/showth ... styleid=21
Image
1991 Audi 200 20vt Quattro-Daily
Follow my build: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=936
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby pilihp2 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:53 pm

MHCAudi200t wrote:Guys,

I thought this was a good read. I came across it while searching for an 07k.

http://m.rennlist.com/rennforums/showth ... styleid=21


Yeah that's from Alex here on PP. He's in the process of an 07k swap into his 944
or is it 924?

his 968.
That's it!
-Phil
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby pete82 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:26 pm

pilihp2 wrote:
MHCAudi200t wrote:Guys,

I thought this was a good read. I came across it while searching for an 07k.

http://m.rennlist.com/rennforums/showth ... styleid=21


Yeah that's from Alex here on PP. He's in the process of an 07k swap into his 944
or is it 924?

his 968.
That's it!


Any link on here for the build?
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby alxdgr8 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:45 pm

Yeah, that's me :) Progress is extremely slow as it is with all of my projects.
I've been collecting all of the 07K info on Rennlist and not copying it to my build thread here since everyone here already knows about it and there they don't.
My thread here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=134
-Alex- @vexartmedia on Instagram
1992 Porsche 968 (07K transplant in progress)
1983 Aud UrQ (20vt swap in progress)
1995 Audi 90QS (Previously 32v V8, now AEB 1.8T)
1986 Audi Coupe GT (7A swap and more)
2010 VW Touareg TDI (DD, tow rig)
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby pete82 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:50 pm

What are the engine codes to search for? any better than others?
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby alxdgr8 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:06 am

pete82 wrote:What are the engine codes to search for? any better than others?


First you need to decide if you want an early or late engine. Only the early had the possibility of the forged crankshaft. If you decide to go with a later engine, you'll get the updated timing chain and can use the forged TT-RS crankshaft (which gets you an 8-bolt flywheel instead of the 6) which runs about $1200 new.

Early engines (2005-2007):
BGP/BGQ/BPR/BPS

Late engines (2008+):
CBT/CBU

You won't know for sure if an early engine has a forged crank without pulling the pan. Hank has been collecting part numbers of all cast and forged cranks and believes that a crank with p/n 07k101e indicates a forged crank, but I think you may find a forged crank without that number too. He might have some insight into more recent data since I know he's constantly getting more engines.
-Alex- @vexartmedia on Instagram
1992 Porsche 968 (07K transplant in progress)
1983 Aud UrQ (20vt swap in progress)
1995 Audi 90QS (Previously 32v V8, now AEB 1.8T)
1986 Audi Coupe GT (7A swap and more)
2010 VW Touareg TDI (DD, tow rig)
2001 Ducati ST4
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby glibobbo21 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:20 pm

Its CBUA* and CBTA* Also, those blocks have the oil pressure reducing valve. Mounts need to be modded or made differently. Ask me how i know :-P
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Noisy Cricket » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:25 pm

Where are the crank wheel's two missing teeth in relation to the crank position? (It's a 60-2 right? Right.)
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby pilihp2 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:32 pm

Noisy Cricket wrote:Where are the crank wheel's two missing teeth in relation to the crank position? (It's a 60-2 right? Right.)


It's actually all magnetic AFAIK and run off rear main.
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby alxdgr8 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:07 pm

pilihp2 wrote:
Noisy Cricket wrote:Where are the crank wheel's two missing teeth in relation to the crank position? (It's a 60-2 right? Right.)


It's actually all magnetic AFAIK and run off rear main.


Yeah, but I think he's asking for the TDC angle offset required for running standalone EFI (the difference between TDC and when the sensor sees the missing teeth; it might be 0 since it's an OEM piece, I don't know how they set it up). Marc or Hank will surely know.

60-2 hall sensor according to the first page of this thread.
-Alex- @vexartmedia on Instagram
1992 Porsche 968 (07K transplant in progress)
1983 Aud UrQ (20vt swap in progress)
1995 Audi 90QS (Previously 32v V8, now AEB 1.8T)
1986 Audi Coupe GT (7A swap and more)
2010 VW Touareg TDI (DD, tow rig)
2001 Ducati ST4
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby pilihp2 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:27 pm

alxdgr8 wrote:
pilihp2 wrote:
Noisy Cricket wrote:Where are the crank wheel's two missing teeth in relation to the crank position? (It's a 60-2 right? Right.)


It's actually all magnetic AFAIK and run off rear main.


Yeah, but I think he's asking for the TDC angle offset required for running standalone EFI (the difference between TDC and when the sensor sees the missing teeth; it might be 0 since it's an OEM piece, I don't know how they set it up). Marc or Hank will surely know.

60-2 hall sensor according to the first page of this thread.


Derp. I didn't read that fully. :hide:
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Noisy Cricket » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:40 pm

Yes, I am very curious as to if the offset is the same as, or extremely close to, or maybe conveniently close to 72 degrees off of, the one on the 5 cylinder GM engines which also use 60-2 wheels.

I have a crazy idea of running an 07k off of GM electronics. I can get the computer + wiring + ancillaries for a lot less than a standalone, and the GM computers are ROBUST and thoroughly hacked, and we're already equipped to tune them at work (HP Tuners) so that overhead cost is paid for.

The more realistic thing is that I'm sticking a 60-2 on my 10vt engine (can't rightly call it an MC2 anymore :) ) and I want to put the missing teeth in the same spot as what VW determined was the best place to put them on a 5cyl engine. Going to be running MS3Pro. It's a good idea to put them in a spot of relative stability so the computer will read it correctly when cranking.
Pete, that rallycross guy

'84 RX-7 (bridge ported, fuel injected, way modified dirt buggy)
'86 QSW (MC2 goes here. Eventually.)
'83 GTI (accidental ownership, now what?)
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby pete82 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:17 pm

glibobbo21 wrote:Its CBUA* and CBTA* Also, those blocks have the oil pressure reducing valve. Mounts need to be modded or made differently. Ask me how i know :-P


so it sounds like either of these engine codes are the way to go?

I've seen a couple of engines now with around 14-18k on them for $500 with $150 shipping, is that good?

and how can you tell by looking at the crank once the pan is off if its forged or not? (or any pictures :hide: )

Someone in the uk has had a couple of these shipped over and there initial comment was:

The heads are good for big power but the stock bottom ends are quite weak due to small wrist pins


is there any way of upgrading these or I presume they can be done when the rods/pistons are upgrade?
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Hank » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:44 am

Noisy Cricket wrote:Yes, I am very curious as to if the offset is the same as, or extremely close to, or maybe conveniently close to 72 degrees off of, the one on the 5 cylinder GM engines which also use 60-2 wheels.

I have a crazy idea of running an 07k off of GM electronics. I can get the computer + wiring + ancillaries for a lot less than a standalone, and the GM computers are ROBUST and thoroughly hacked, and we're already equipped to tune them at work (HP Tuners) so that overhead cost is paid for.

The more realistic thing is that I'm sticking a 60-2 on my 10vt engine (can't rightly call it an MC2 anymore :) ) and I want to put the missing teeth in the same spot as what VW determined was the best place to put them on a 5cyl engine. Going to be running MS3Pro. It's a good idea to put them in a spot of relative stability so the computer will read it correctly when cranking.


HA, I have a 07 Chevy Colorado shop truck with the 2.9L i4. I have a small dream of putting a 07k in that car with the i5 harness.
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Noisy Cricket » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:27 pm

More likely than not, you won't need a new harness, just add the connectors, add the pins for the fifth coil and injector in the ECU, and splice the powers in to the rest of the harness. GM is pretty good for making their computers "generic", and the 2.9 computer probably already has the additional drivers in it. IIRC it's the same computer for all Atlas engines.
Pete, that rallycross guy

'84 RX-7 (bridge ported, fuel injected, way modified dirt buggy)
'86 QSW (MC2 goes here. Eventually.)
'83 GTI (accidental ownership, now what?)
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby pete82 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:47 am

good point - whats the best harness to use for one of these engines? stock? 20vt? vems custom?
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Noisy Cricket » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:05 pm

Noisy Cricket wrote:Yes, I am very curious as to if the offset is the same as, or extremely close to, or maybe conveniently close to 72 degrees off of, the one on the 5 cylinder GM engines which also use 60-2 wheels.


Found a waveform from a Hummer H3 3.7l while cranking. 10 pulses of the CKP before #1 ignition pulse. Don't know what the ignition timing while cranking is. Intake and exhaust cam waveforms are non-simple.

Can't find a 07K crank waveform.
Pete, that rallycross guy

'84 RX-7 (bridge ported, fuel injected, way modified dirt buggy)
'86 QSW (MC2 goes here. Eventually.)
'83 GTI (accidental ownership, now what?)
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Noisy Cricket » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:43 pm

I'm all but married to the 10vt for my Quantum. At this point I have gone beyond "fun repower" and am going deep into "shoot for highest HP 10-valve in North America" which is kind of a weaksauce goal since nobody really builds 10vs but it's good to have a goal.

"A friend" told me that "someone" wants him to put an 07K in his Audi TT.

NC: "But I thought 07K were 5cyl-esque bellhousing" (per this thread)
Friend: "No, they are 4cyl bellhousing."

(Noisy Cricket looks into the engine bay of his GTI, then looks into finding a source for Atlas engine computer/harness/throttle body/misc. while wondering how quickly a bone stock 2.5 would turn a 2H transmission into powder)
Pete, that rallycross guy

'84 RX-7 (bridge ported, fuel injected, way modified dirt buggy)
'86 QSW (MC2 goes here. Eventually.)
'83 GTI (accidental ownership, now what?)
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Hank » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:44 am

Correct, bell housing is 1.8T, and flywheel/clutch/throwout is very close. A Mk1 07k is about as hard as a AAN swap into a 4kq, and a mk2 07k swap is even easier. the biggest hurdle is getting obd2 cars smog checked and legal, but an older car would be on standalone in a quick minute.
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