Standalone Comparisons

Discuss VEMS and other standalone ECUs

Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby Hank » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:38 am

I somewhat disagree there. I think the IIc is so dumbed down, it is easier for the newbie to figure out EFI. The VEMS can be daunting with tons of options, pull downs, boxes, checks, ect. The IIc is an easier system to master because of the simplicity.

That said, the complexity of the VEMS is what makes it extremely powerful.
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby loxxrider » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:29 am

The thing is, just about every standalone uses a similar interface EXCEPT IIC. Any tuner can tune on just about any standalone with a little time, but get a IIC in your hands and its like WTF was this programmer thinking? That's how I feel about it at least.
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby Hank » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:13 am

How so? It has VE and ignition grids just like every other ecu that compares map to rpm, or tps to rpm, ect. The latest updates are pretty on par with every other ecu. I like the way they put all the sensor inputs on one screen and give the ignition or fuel trims on one screen. Makes it easy to see what sortof overall ignition the car will see under cerain conditions. Say 6000rpm, 250kpa, iat 50c, tps 100%, clt 99c, you add up the numbers and see exactly what's going on.

I find the main and idle scalar easy to use on the IIc too.

Don't get me wrong, I have vems in my personal car because I believe it is a better system if they were equal prices. the Iic was a great 2002 ecu, and it was even competitive up till 2007 ish, but now I would be surprised if they move any at all
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby chaloux » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:55 am

I just found VEMS a lot more intuitive. Perhaps because I used it first, but nothing was familiar in IIc. Trying To find the same functions was hard and the base setup, like configuring wideband, setting rates for injectors, etc was alien. I didn't even get to the point of actual tuning before I sold it.
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04 Jetta TDI - DC stage I clutch/14lb fw
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby Hank » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:02 pm

Yeah, probably the same reason I think the IIc is pretty easy to understand. If you were looking for how to setup the onboard wideband in the IIc, you will be looking a long time :)

Vems was pretty intuitive, but you need a kickass vendor like Marc to guide you if you have problems becuase the documentation is difficult to navigate.
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby loxxrider » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:15 pm

I was easily able to figure out how to navigate VEMS on my own, especially after using something like MegaSquirt or Motec. I just didn't find anything to be really user-friendly on the IIC. You did mention some fairly useful features like what is contributing to overall ignition, but for other things, I found that it just didn't make sense. Single input values for things which should have full tables or graphs, etc. Of course the whole offline editing thing is the real killer.
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby 85oceanic » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:20 pm

Just my 2 cents, but I just wanted to throw AEM V2 out there. I think it totally sucks, especially the data logging function. 2 grand for a system that doesn't even touch VEMS. No thank you.\

Ergo the name: Almost Engine Management.
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby paradox11235 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:08 pm

I've heard again and again to go VEMS over 034, especially concerning price. What I'd like input on is MS vs VEMS. Obviously there's more support for vems on an i5, but MS is so widely used finding someone who knows their stuff would be easier. A fully loaded MS3 setup costs about the same as VEMS econoseal so that's not so much of an issue, although I haven't really looked at MS2 and whatnot, MS3 seems like it's more user friendly to tune.
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby Juizer » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:04 am

Last post on 2013, but... :hide:

How about VEMS vs. Maxxecu?
S2central had some comparison about these and I believe maxxecu is not so known on states, but does anyone have any thoughts?
The price for new out of box pnp application is somewhat similar on both, atleast here in Finland.

http://www.maxxtuning.eu/products/engine-control-and-electronics/plugin-ecu/audi/maxxecu-plugin-ecu-kit-for-audi-s2-or-s4-or-s6-aan-adyaby

Thuppu from s2central has changed vems for maxxecu and is selling his old vems unit, gotta say i'm more than tempted, but after hearing his praises for maxxecu I dunno... :idunno:
Maxxecu seems to have faster processing of data and more attachable goodies.. Egt's and pwm thingies.
Both should be relatively easy to tune in i5, have android apps, ect..
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby mushasho » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:05 pm

My thoughts on VEMS... (and I run it)
Say you're a newbie and are completely starting to do this from scratch, 1 of the many preliminary things you will need to calibrate and set up are your injectors...
"great" you say to yourself and grab that chart that came with your new injectors to input this vital information into your configuration... only there's a problem if you're on VEMS... IT DOESN'T use this information like the other popular choices out there. Trial and Error it is to get it "close" ... Luckily almost every possible injector has been used and with a little fact finding you can something that "works" ....
For the person jumping in NEW or even someone that's already seasoned, calling around for help for something sooo simple can be seen as a drawback...(time consumption)

Serial ports? Adaptors? Drivers?..... YUCK... hasn't the USB protocol on like 3.0 nowadays? Would be nice to at least get 1.0 on VEMS

SD Data logger should be better implemented on VEMS... it's still very "young" in how it does it's thing... I have it, and have only been able to see results once... after that it asked to reformat the card and potentially lost what was there... along with the fact that for some reason on MY ecu I need to physically remove the card out of the box and place it in the reader instead of plugging my PC in and reading it remotely.... again, a USB stick would prove beneficial here if removal is going to be a constant thing for reading files.

With the trend of going towards the use of e85, I feel VEMS is still very in the "experimental" stages on that front... we need MORE control of what the ecu does with flex fuel signal... (cold start, accel enrichment are sorely needed)

This being said, I get SUPPORT...LOTS of SUPPORT... & that's why I run it and put up with certain things. I'm just bummed that with how tightly knit the VEMS community is that changes in development don't occur quicker as it does with other companies....

Get a system that you get support from.

If you contact some of those guys running MAXX, LINK, Motec ect on s2forums, they'll gladly share there experience on VEMS. At the end of the day it doesn't matter, because you'll also find many more people having no issues with VEMS as well...

Plan your budget, see what features you NEED, ask yourself who will do the tuning and you'll have your answer.

Cheers
Last edited by mushasho on Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby Marc » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:12 pm

Maxx looks interesting but as has been said before, the hardware specs are secondary to first had experience and support.

If they want to send me one I'll evaluate it. its pushing it at $1800 USD retail for the audi PnP, IMO though.
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby speeding-g60 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:51 pm

mine is about the support i get. and it works just fine.

and to the guy asking about 24 hour support? i have called my tuner at 1 AM his time and gotten ahold of him. he stays up late just to remote tune for me. called him on Thanksgiving, he spent a long time helping me out.

and i am not certain that too many guys here are into the realm of a Motec or other higher end ecu's. i know i am not. yet anyways.

and when i bought mine, it was all set up with a working basemap right out of the box. fired it right up. all configurations done for me. support......
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby chaloux » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:12 pm

Ob what do you mean calibrate the injectors? Like setting reqfuel?

I'm stoked on VEMS and definitely provides me/my skill level enough customization. I think that now after using it for... Shoot, 6 years? I have a good handle on what's required of running standalone, and I think many people are likely not prepared for the work it requires. I know when we first started using it we definitely weren't.

And the support for VEMS through Marc is insane. I don't know what it's like across the pond, though.

Ok, yes, a USB connection would be nice but if you get a decent serial-usb it should work pretty much flawlessly.
Matt

01 Allroad 6speed - RS4 clutch, catless downpipes, stuklr tune
04 Jetta TDI - DC stage I clutch/14lb fw
DEATH by rust - 96 Audi A6 Avant 2.5l TDI
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby Mcstiff » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:55 am

Noting against VEMS... Does anyone have any thoughts about the AEM Infinity? Seems to have some good traction with newer cars.
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby All_Euro » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:26 am

Work - Houzz / linkedin
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby mushasho » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:26 pm

chaloux wrote:Ob what do you mean calibrate the injectors? Like setting reqfuel?



Deadtimes... it's pretty critical and simple to calibrate on most any other box... except VEMS

chaloux wrote:Ok, yes, a USB connection would be nice but if you get a decent serial-usb it should work pretty much flawlessly.


Still requires an additional piece, and if your experience was like that of many others (including mine), then you probably went through a couple "decent" adapters before getting one VEMS liked (could be CPU related as well, IDK)

Mcstiff wrote:Noting against VEMS... Does anyone have any thoughts about the AEM Infinity? Seems to have some good traction with newer cars.

Nice PUN... Not that many of us have this issue but traction control is another feature VEMS lacks for those in 2wd situations... AEM Infinity is the BOMB among those familiar with it... Many local Honda guys are dropping their S300's and K-Pro's in favor for Infinity...

All_Euro wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LkdEGeVWZgk

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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby Marc » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:34 pm

its also a $2800 ecu, no audi PnP available and not even sure it supports the trigger type.
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby chaloux » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:37 pm

Marc, I think if you charge more, people will like it more.
Matt

01 Allroad 6speed - RS4 clutch, catless downpipes, stuklr tune
04 Jetta TDI - DC stage I clutch/14lb fw
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby Marc » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:48 pm

chaloux wrote:Marc, I think if you charge more, people will like it more.



I know *I'd* like it more in terms of year end profits that way! your comment is actually not far off the mark. in some circles for an ecu to be taken seriously it has to cost at least a certain amount, otherwise its considered "low end". go figure.
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby mushasho » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:31 pm

chaloux wrote:Marc, I think if you charge more, people will like it more.


It's not about the price, VEMS does what other $700 ecu's do... though in it's own way...

It's when that "PnP" option comes in... at $1400 there are more option that "might" be better albiet at the cost of wiring up....
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby Mcstiff » Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:50 pm

chaloux wrote:Marc, I think if you charge more, people will like it more.

I don't think evaluating the competition is negative, the idea is to get what works best, right? 034 tried/tries to operate in a vacuum, the IIc haven't changed in years.
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby ChrisAudi80 » Sat Dec 26, 2015 3:12 am

speeding-g60 wrote:mine is about the support i get. and it works just fine.

and to the guy asking about 24 hour support? i have called my tuner at 1 AM his time and gotten ahold of him. he stays up late just to remote tune for me. called him on Thanksgiving, he spent a long time helping me out.

and i am not certain that too many guys here are into the realm of a Motec or other higher end ecu's. i know i am not. yet anyways.

and when i bought mine, it was all set up with a working basemap right out of the box. fired it right up. all configurations done for me. support......

You know we have talked about this before, but it's like we are talking about two different guys. I have sent him several emails and never got a reply.
I think I need to send him the wiring harness that I have and either swap it for one that is made for an AEB (or PnP adapter) or ask him to modify the one I have for my application. Whichever is more cost effective. I laid out the harness again a while ago and some of the connectors do not match. I think the harness I have is for a slightly different 1.8T engine. Stupid me forgot ask the seller what engine code it was for.
96 S6 auto
95 80Q AEB VEMS
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby paradox11235 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:42 pm

Now that I actually have a little experience with a couple of setups I'll chime in here... I'm definitely glad I went with vems for my setup. I was on a budget so it was a toss up between econoseal vems and ms3x, and I went with vems for the support. Marc had me up and running in no time, even after I made a couple of small installation errors and wasted quite a bit of time, mine and his. Had I gone with ms3x I think I would have had to get another car or just order a motronic tune.

I've been working on a mk1 s3 running a seriously built 1.8t and ms3x and it's been a total headache. Car came to us with a hack wiring job and has never really run right. Ms3x wouldn't cooperate with the bolt down style coils so we had to wire in the newer coils, then we figured out that it reaally doesn't like the VR crank signal so now I've got to wire in a VR to square wave adapter...

And to boot a fully loaded ms3x setup doesn't have integrated wideband control, and costs about the same as VEMS econoseal. I'd say VEMS is the way to go for 99% of people looking for a system for their Audi. Unless you're familiar with another system and have a good understanding of EFI in general just go VEMS.

That said it would be nice if it had easier injector calibration. My settings from Marc have been fine but I've been reading Greg Banish's book and there are no settings for deadtimes, offsets or voltage compensation curves. Not in common terms anyways. I'd consider that a small detail though.
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby loxxrider » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:08 am

Toldyaso :D
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
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Re: Standalone Comparisons

Postby Mcstiff » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:11 am

http://vems.hu/vt/help/v3/v3_injector_settings.html

"Injector voltage compensation strategy

Traditional - the ecu calculates the added deadtime based on the input variables below.

Simplified - the ecu looks up the deadtime from injector deadtime table (interpolated by VBATT)."
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