The 90Q (07k?)

Document and share your build!

Re: The 90

Postby audifreakjim » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:33 pm

That diagram shows a pump with an electronic controlled solenoid. I've never seen one of those in an early engine.
User avatar
audifreakjim
 
Posts: 2105
Joined: Mar 3, 2013

The 90

Postby Afterthought » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:30 pm

Yeah you are correct, I have had no luck finding the diagram or any info on the older pump , but I was able to find some info on the later variable pumps and was trying to use that to see if it would provide any insight. I was looking into the pumps to see if I could interchange them at all or if I was stuck with this style. But maybe I dont even need to worry about it. I was curious how it worked though!
You have the older one?

So in my picture, the old style pump on the left is what my block has in it. I *think * that is the only pump that I can run in my old block . I read that there were 3 types, and the one on the right I don't know if that is mid or late. Will have to do some research.

After some looking I think I see "some" of how it works on the old pump. It looks similar to the later solenoid controlled version except the gears are fixed, not axially displaced like in that picture.
So how does it regulate pressure?

This is my guess
Post-filter oil, as it is coming back into the engine, goes from the mount block into main passage that goes back into the engine, this has a small port off of the bottom that goes back down to the oil pump and pushes against a plunger type thing.
On the other end of the plunger thing is a spring which is held in place by a "tamper resistant" cap.
The plunger sits in a passage that connects the oil inlet to the outlet. So when the plunger is in a certain position due to the shape of it the wide portion of the plunger blocks the passage. This would give you max outlet pressure.

When the plunger moves the narrow part of the plunger opens the higher pressure discharge side is going to push back into the lower pressure side , path of least resistance.


Im trying to figure out what that all means. It looks like the higher the filtered oil pressure pushes against the plunger and against the spring.

ImageImage
Image

It looks like If the spring is partially compressed this passage would be open between the low and high pressure side .
Image
Image
Image
.Image

Or am I completely wrong and the flow goes the other way? From the pump to the post filter housing passageway ?
Last edited by Afterthought on Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

The 90

Postby Afterthought » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:34 pm

Whole oil pump is just a big digression though (if that’s a word)
I have always wondered how it works and the reason for trying to figure it out now is to see if I should change anything before I put the clutch on and put the engine in .
But I’m kidding myself if I don’t think it’ll be in and out a few times.

What I can do however is when I get the engine together , I can make sure to add a spot to monitor pressure at a few different places . Say something like :

Cooler outlet
End of head
Upstream of filter

Maybe I’ll ask Marc if there is a provision in VEMS where I could set up to have it feed into the VEMS so I can log it .

On these engines ; protects the filter from getting crushed ? It doesn’t look like there is anything in place in the factory piece ...
Is there any sort of bypass that will bypass the filter if it crushes or clogs ? Seems like 100% of the oil has to go through the filter to get to the engine . I compare old I-5 filter housing and it looks the same . So I wonder if I should be integrated any sort of bypass into my setup ? Only thing I see is a cooler bypass “1.35 bar” which my thermostatic piece should cover that.
Image
Last edited by Afterthought on Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

The 90

Postby Afterthought » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:49 pm

Sonofbitch I finally found it . I wasn’t totally wrong . So this is how the older version pump works I think it’s 05-07?
Image
Image

The mid pump really doesn’t look any different than the early but maybe I’ll take a look at one. and the late pump definitely won’t fit .

Early 07k 115 105 G ( J / F ?)
Mid 07K 115 105 Q
Late 07K 115 105 R

Early
Image

Mid
Image

Late
Image
Last edited by Afterthought on Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

Re: The 90

Postby Einbilden » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:30 pm

ecf67452a12650139e72c0a22c29b784.jpg
ecf67452a12650139e72c0a22c29b784.jpg (342.69 KiB) Viewed 7279 times


Hope this helps.
Mike
User avatar
Einbilden
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Jun 2, 2015

Re: The 90

Postby Afterthought » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:32 pm

It does help , yeah . Thanks!
I was trying to use google translate .
So I don’t have any sort of check valve on the main oil supply like is shown there . I wonder if the filter due to its location way above the pan would drain down then ? Or maybe most filters already have internal check valve I guess


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

Re: The 90

Postby audifreakjim » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:03 am

The filter should have a check valve, use a big TDI filter if you can. I always pre-lube mine with the accusump. The oil does drain down, but I think your adapter has the check valve in it, correct?

One thing Hank and I always bounced around was adding tension to the control pressure spring to increase oil pressure. I'm going to add a port of some sort of port to the oil pan if I ever have this think apart again. Basically a way to access a preload screw added to the control pressure spring.

By the way, you will never see 3.7 bar at the port on the front of the head that most people tap into. I'm lucky to see 1.5 bar there when hot. Which also reminds me, I have been meaning to move the feed line to the turbo from there. It may be adding to the pressure drop, and I'd rather see a bit more pressure going to the turbo.
User avatar
audifreakjim
 
Posts: 2105
Joined: Mar 3, 2013

The 90

Postby Afterthought » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:47 pm

audifreakjim wrote:The filter should have a check valve, use a big TDI filter if you can. I always pre-lube mine with the accusump. The oil does drain down, but I think your adapter has the check valve in it, correct?

One thing Hank and I always bounced around was adding tension to the control pressure spring to increase oil pressure. I'm going to add a port of some sort of port to the oil pan if I ever have this think apart again. Basically a way to access a preload screw added to the control pressure spring.

By the way, you will never see 3.7 bar at the port on the front of the head that most people tap into. I'm lucky to see 1.5 bar there when hot. Which also reminds me, I have been meaning to move the feed line to the turbo from there. It may be adding to the pressure drop, and I'd rather see a bit more pressure going to the turbo.


The port to the head in my filter block does have a check valve on this adapter block . I think it’s the same check valve that would be in the old school I-5 engine block.
Image


Regarding the spring I could do that now if it’s necessary , before I put the engine in.
Or I could also measure the control piston and make one in a lathe that basically takes its spot ,and blocks that port for good .
I would be taking a chance that there would be some effect that I didn’t anticipate though [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY] . I don’t know what could happen but maybe if the pressure was too high it would cause the relief to open
Image

The IAbed block has a feed for oil and water to the turbo.
It also has this spot pictured below which Unless, I’m overlooking something, is unused- I believe is used to cross drill one of the ports, so that I could tie into if needed to monitor pressure. I would be able to look at pressure upstream and downstream of the filter , and also the far end of the head .
Image
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

Re: The 90

Postby audifreakjim » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:47 pm

Yep, same check valve. I like that adapter.
User avatar
audifreakjim
 
Posts: 2105
Joined: Mar 3, 2013

Re: The 90

Postby Afterthought » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:14 am

audifreakjim wrote:Yep, same check valve. I like that adapter.

It is a great part . Looks like it has everything I need and I can choose from a few places to feed the turbo.
I don’t know if it’s designed necessarily for longitude swaps only negative to it , for me is that my oil filter location is fixed now and it points directly toward the radiator if I put it in the side mount location .
I will put it back in the car soon , and see exactly how much it sticks out but , while I can experiment with filter size if I want a big filter that’s just how it’s gonna be.
Image

Option 2 or my backup option , which would be a really slick setup . Run the hank style block , to the remote filter mount block and keep the filter low so it doesn’t drain back, but tap the block for a check valve . That remote filter block also has plenty of taps on it for pressure monitoring or I could use to feed the turbo .
Image
Problem is my block is either not complete or missing some ports , Maybe it was for fit up only . Not sure ImageImage
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

The 90

Postby Afterthought » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:14 am

Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

Re: The 90

Postby audifreakjim » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:35 am

Just use a remote oil filter adapter on there to give you AN ports like Hanks

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctr- ... 97EALw_wcB
User avatar
audifreakjim
 
Posts: 2105
Joined: Mar 3, 2013

Re: The 90

Postby Afterthought » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:16 pm

Ah yeah good point
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

The 90

Postby Afterthought » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:34 pm

I saw that boost brothers garage just got theirs started and I believe they are using that same oil block I am but I didn’t look at how they set up the cooler and stuff
But anyway I have an idea of how I can set it up and I do have a used nascar setrab cooler but I may have to find something with bigger than -8 in/out
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

The 90

Postby Afterthought » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:37 pm

I’m back working on this when I can .
Next goal is to get engine and trans in the car . So I need to sort the linkage , axles etc .
More importantly the starter .

Image

First thing I did was cut the small chassis 016 ball, weld it onto 01E lever arm
Image
Image
Image
Image

Hopefully I’m on the right path with that .

Now for the stabilizer bar and the differences with the GBE trans .

Hopefully Sean H doesn’t mind me borrowing his pic. my trans is missing one key hole for this bracket (see his pic). I dont have this bracket anyways - I have to make one but its interestring to me, I dont have the same bolt holes.

Image
Image

The stabilizer bar is adjustable length so I’m thinking about using this hole to the right and make my own setup using the 016 trans as a comparison to locate , steal the ball or even just cut the end off a small chassis linkage
Image

The other difference is that I don’t have the same speedo setup as a B2 , I may be able to dissect the 4000 transmission and get the parts I need .
Image
Image


Re: starter . My bracket might have it a little close to the flywheel . Might as 2mm thickness to it and make a new one.
To test it I’m thinking I can use an old battery to trigger just the bendix to pop out maybe , but I don’t want to actually turn the engine over . Just test the engagement before I bolt /weld shit together.
Then I need to decide, do I weld the bracket to the timing cover which would be difficult, or just dissect the starter and weld it to that so it's "bolt on" . In order to do that I definitely need to figure out how to trace and draw a copy of it in to fusion so I can machine it next time.

ImageImage

I just want to get the engine in there . Not that im ready but I want to work on some of the " cool" fab stuff like finish the header, downpipe, wastegate, intercooler, oil lines etc.
So next on the list I'll pull/push/drag? this parts 4000 into the shop and see what I can do about pulling the engine and trans.
That way I can get whatever parts I need. I think that I can remove the axle cups from the 016 and use them (with or without some machining?)
Image
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

The 90

Postby Afterthought » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:38 am

Heres what I think I am going to do.
The stock ball is about 10mm or 0.385 "

The hole I want to use, pictured below, is an 8mmx1.25 thread. Or I can convert it to the next size up standard thread so that I can easily replace

So I need to find any spherical rod end , ball size is not important but the stud on the end of the ball needs to be 8x1.25
then I can thread that into this hole and make my own linkage arm using another ball and bend it to fit tight to the trans.
Image
Image
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:25 pm

I ordered some parts. More to come on the linkage.

So first fail of the day. I look inside the trans and realized the clutch fork is missing. So researching on 7ZAP I'm having trouble finding whether its 0A2 141 719 A , or 01X 141 719 B, or maybe I get lucky and I can throw one on from a 90Q 20v... I do have that laying around
Image

Now looking at the trans and FW, I think I need a 1.8T pilot bearing. I ordered one and we'll see. Out of curiosity I measured it. I did have one on my shelf that appears to fit.
Image

Now at this point with all these questions, I'm going to rebrand this thread "pats stupid questions thread " because I have literally zero experience with these engines.
first thing I don't know, Looking at the flywheel/crank, etc. I remember when I took the car apart I had some spacers between the flywheel and crank. I don't know if I need to re-use one or all of them to get the proper height on the FW/ clutch etc.
The dark one I'm assuming is the actual 60-2 ring?
But the two silver ones, no idea how to determine whether they need to be there or not.
Image
ImageImage

Lookin on 7zap I see a note next to the two “compensation” washers stating that they are for automatic
Image
Image
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:43 pm

On the oil cooler /filter/etc fiasco.
It looks like there are 3 ways I can go.

Option 1 : mount the filter directly to the oil distribution block with a sandwich plate under it to the cooler .

Option 2 : remote mount the filter and use that remote mount block to also feed the cooler with inline thermostat . Or tee off it.

Option 3: remote mount filter , use the sandwich plate under the remote mount piece to also feed the cooler .

Image
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


So I think what I’m going to do first is make the core support and figure out where the intercooler will sit . Then figure out what space is left from the cooler .

I think I might have to send the inline cooler thing back , because I don’t want to set it up where flow is bypassing the filter all the time .

An additional thing i should start thinking about. This pos , I’m not sure if I want to run it , or if I should try and design one and cut a billet version with less crap on it , since I am going to try and simplify the cooking system a little.
Image


Edit: oh yeah and I do probably have to start thinking about how to plumb in the accusump now, too. I haven’t even ordered or looked at thaose yet. I'm thinking I would put a check valve after the oil cooler, between that and the engine, and there I would tee in the accusump downstream of the check valve.
Ive never used an accusump before so I need to look into some different things like the electric valves that are available with it and which one to get. I see there are different pressure settings available for the electric valve and it looks like some research needs to go into getting the proper one.
Thinking of a 2 liter accusump with the electric pressure control valve , then From reading on the site , I may need to toggle it off at hot idle so it doesn’t drain itself .
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby audifreakjim » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:58 am

Starting to see the value in an electric water pump? lol. I've been considering playing with a reverse flow setup. Something to consider while you are in the middle of this. But quite frankly if you can re-use that thermostat housing, it would simplify everything a lot. If you are running a heater core, you need most of those ports anyways.
User avatar
audifreakjim
 
Posts: 2105
Joined: Mar 3, 2013

The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:24 pm

I started on the core support today .

First I went to The local scrap metal recycler to see if they had anything I could use . I found a flat piece of stainless to use for the flat parts .
No luck there on the tubing but I did find 2 of these aluminum plates that are milled flat so I grabbed those . Under 10$ a piece and I can drill them out to use as fixtures.

Image

typically when people use your shop the things that they are most likely to donate are things like messes, used car batteries , used motor oil, a need for more consumables . But someone at some point gave me this bumper and I think its perfect .
Image
Image
Image
Image
ImageImage

Now for welding the two flat plates the aluminum chunks came in handy already , as a heat sink .
Image
Image


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Semi finished product . Now next chance I get I can fit the intercooler up there , figure out how to attach that to this core support

Image
Last edited by Afterthought on Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:39 pm

audifreakjim wrote:Starting to see the value in an electric water pump? lol. I've been considering playing with a reverse flow setup. Something to consider while you are in the middle of this. But quite frankly if you can re-use that thermostat housing, it would simplify everything a lot. If you are running a heater core, you need most of those ports anyways.


Yeah there is still time , ha . I’m not so far along that I couldn’t switch to one . Since I haven’t done any of the piping for the water stuff .
id have to figure out what to do with the area where the factory pump is and look at which pump to use , I might go to a newer style like Volvo, bmw .
Last edited by Afterthought on Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby themagellan » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:30 am

The brace looks awesome - will be cool to see the intercooler at home. The linkage welding is impressive.
User avatar
themagellan
 
Posts: 841
Joined: Mar 5, 2013

The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:38 am

themagellan wrote:The brace looks awesome - will be cool to see the intercooler at home. The linkage welding is impressive.


Intercooler hopefully I can locate it down low as low as I can get it and stack the oil cooler above it .
Image
Image

Yeah the linkage is going to be a bit of a pain. But I think I have it figured out how I’m going to do it .
I’m using a .5” ID threaded rod
A 5/16-24 LH threaded Rod end
A 5/16-24 Rh threaded rod end
Two .” OD threaded inserts

I’m not doing it with the lathe this time because I want it to be something That if I need it again I could just order the parts from summit .
What I’m trying to produce , an 01E GBE specific cross rod, I *believe* JHM sells it but it’s like $250 or something.
Image
Image

One rod end will have to be converted to 8mm to bolt into the transmission , as I would rather do that than tap out the hole .
Last edited by Afterthought on Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:49 am

Re trans and clutch.
I think I have all the parts I need now to get this engine and trans mated together

240mm 7A clutch kit from Ringer Racing
(1.8t ? )Pilot bearing (INA PN FC65354)
01E throwout bearing
Iroz FW that luckily Nate had sourced already

Also I found the proper release arm or whatever it’s called 0A2 141 719 A


What I have here pictured below .
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Afterthought
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby varia » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:56 am

im sure it will be an amazing build! keep up the good work Pat!
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

project 2226
varia
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Mar 19, 2013
Location: Los Angeles

PreviousNext

Return to Projects

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 32 guests