George's ABZ'd B4 90

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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:25 pm

So after overnighting parts from Grillage and working all weekend on this thing, I still don't have it running. Very frustrating.

I got the starter and starter wiring all in, oil system is done, mounts and all that crap have been finalized.

Installed the harness, grounded the two fat brown wires, powered up a few others, only needed 3 to get the car started. One for ignition coils, one for MAF/o2 and one that fed the main relay/fuses which powered pretty much everything else. Or so I thought. With that powered and everything hooked up I could not get spark.

So my next thought was that the immo is causing me problems. I soldered in my little immo defeat board I got on ebay, but still the same result.

Lastly I attempted to get my VAGCOM working to communicate with the ECU, but the cable I had was shot. Looks like I won't be driving this thing to H2O....

Next step is to get the vagcom working and verify the ECU is powering up.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:10 am

Back at it as of late. I couldn't get it started for a bit, simply because I decided I didn't need to have an ICMs in the car...

After sourcing and installing I had spark. Jumped the fuel pump and she fired up. Recently I wired the harness into the car, so it starts with the key. Next on my list is routing all the vacuum lines to get a nice smooth idle. Still have a bunch to do but hearing the engine run was very encouraging!
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby WOMBAT » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:21 am

Yes!! That's great motivation!
Casey O

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Past Projects:
- 07 Cooper S - 91 200 20vt - 91 90 20v - 85 4000CS - 96 Audi Cabriolet 5 Spd - 02 A4 1.8T - 91 V8 5 Spd - 01 A6 2.7T 6 Spd Sport - 86 5000CS - 91 100
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:24 am

Few questions for anyone familiar wit this engine. I have pretty much all my crankcase breather stuff figured out, I didn't connect any hoses on the valley pan nipples before putting on the intake manifold, so that should be fun to get to. Other than that there is a small nipple coming off the valley pan that faces the rear of the car, where does that feed to?

As for the cooling system... referencing this diagram:

Image

All of it is very self explanatory, execept the line that goes to the oil cooler. I no longer have the factory oil cooler and juduging by what I see there is only one line going to it. Is there a passage in the block that Im not seeing that makes this a full coolant 'loop' and not just a dead ended line? I want to cap the nipple on the back left side of the motor, but I'm stumped on how there is only one line there.

EDIT: I found my answer, there is a port on the block towards the front I missed! Might try to use that and the feed line for what was the oil cooler for an external rad, since I want to stick with the stock V6 rad if I can for now.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby 90quattrocoupe » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:57 am

This picture shows the water line on piece the back of your motor.

Image

The passenger side lower inlet, runs to the holes in front of your external oil lines you are putting in. These lines were used to preheat and cool the oil, when you had the oil cooler and filter located there. Just put a short hose and plug that line.

The upper line on the hard line water line goes to the passenger side heater inlet. The other line point up is for the outlet side of the heater. The line going off to the driver's side goes to the bottom of the overflow bottle.

I will tell you right now, the B4 V6 radiator will not be enough. It is a single core radiator and the stock V8 is a dual core. In the following picture this was my solution. Some may like it some may not, but it works for me.

I had this radiator made to the same dimensions as a B4 V6 radiator, and used the top and bottom pieces from a B4 radiator so I would have stock mounting. It is a dual core, triple pass radiator. The car runs cold.

This picture is of the radiator mounted in the stock B4 location, with shrouding I installed. Shrouding and sealing off leak area is very important. You need to force all the air you can through this radiator.
If you look closely, you can see the shrouding on the sides and at the bottom. The hood is sealed using a stock B4 rubber top piece, mounted on the back top of the radiator. I also used another length of the B4 hood seal modified, to mount on the front top of the radiator, to seal the opening between the radiator and the cross member.
The side and bottom shrouds are sealed using stuck on weather stripping.

Image

The next picture shows the radiator mounted up without the shrouding on the sides and bottom. You will notice the top cross member the bottom cross members are standard B4. There is a cut out on the passenger side of the top cross member support. This was done for an earlier radiator. I have another cross member in the wings, as a replacement.

Image

The next pictures are of the stock lower B4 mounting location. These were added to the radiator, so that it would mount in the stock locations.

Image

Image

This next picture show the top mount locations, using the stock B4 mounts. I had the top piece and bottom piece removed from a stock B4 radiator mounted to this radiator.

Image

This is the front of the radiator once it was removed. This company was using standard brass end tanks, so big hammer was using on the drivers side to clear the headlight. According to them it is hard to make one off brass end tanks.

Image

This is the back of the radiator. On the drivers side in the upper left had corner, you can see the inlet is a 90. This was done to allow easier hose installation. I didn't need a hose with a 90 degree bend. Next to the inlet, is a small nipple to run a hose to the stock overflow tank. In the lower left is a petcock valve, with a extension. This allows you to attach a hose, making it easier to drain.
On the lower right is the outlet pipe and hose. The hard pipe is long, because it needed to clear the alternator pulley. If I had run a hose all the way down, it would have interfered with the pulley. It would have been even worse had I had to use a rubber hose with a 90 on it. Besides, makes is easier to install the hose. The Spal fan is located so it just misses the crank pulley and the power steering pulley.

Image

The two pushers fans are A4 AC fans. The passenger side A4 fan and the Spal fan come on at about 93 degrees C. They are controlled by an adjustable thermostat. The drivers side A4 AC fan comes on with a switch. Since, I don't have air conditioning, I use the AC switch on the climate control to turn it on, if needed.

This picture shows the upper radiator hose configuration. It is an A8 hose flipped. I try to pick these up off junk yard cars, because it would be tough cutting up a new $275 hose.

Image

Everything fits nice and neatly, behind the front bumper. Without chopping up anything to make some off the shelf radiator fit.
I am sure, you could find a radiator shop who could build you one out of aluminum, if they could find the right core. Some people may complain about the cost, but having a radiator that fits, uses stock mounts, and comes out easily, is well worth in my opinion. This radiator almost runs too cool. I have been in bumper to bumper LA traffic on a 100F degree day, and it does not over heat.

Image

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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:32 am

Awesome info thanks!

I figured out the coolant lines, I'm in the process of tapping the side of the block for a 1/2" NPT, to either run a plug or a barbed fitting.

As far as the size of the radiator goes, I'm really put off on everyone insisting that you can't use the stock radiator. I shouldn't say everyone because I have been told also that the size of the radiator is not necessarily the issue. I understand you have done this before, but hear me out. A lot of B5 guys, with the 4.2 swap, use a 1.8T A4 radiator, which is smaller than the B4 V6 one with no problems. I'm hoping that if I keep the air out of the system with the proper bleed valve on the heater core lines, and the vent line coming off the top of the stock V6 radiator, I might be okay. That combined with a pusher fan on the front of the ac condenser, and modding the shrouding on the back of the radiator to fit a couple slimmer fans, hopefully means that I won't have any issues. My climate might help also. :D

If it gets hot still I will tie in an aux radiator in the oiler cooler coolant loop on the side of the motor and go from there.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby the german » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:54 pm

From what I have seen from others, it seems most people seem to run into issues when they run on the track or have air traps in their systems. I'm using an aluminum 1.8T radiator w/ dual pusher fans and as much space between the engine and the radiator as possible, and it has worked great for me. I haven't tracked the car, and frankly I never plan to because (A) its not a race car and (B) the risk:reward ratio doesn't pencil out to me. If this is just going to be a street car, you may be just fine.*

As a note, the front coolant hose can be a big air trap. Be sure there is a bleed nipple on it like the factory A8 hose has.




*Results may vary. You could find that the V6 radiator is not sufficient, in which case you can go for revision B ;)
Kirk

1990 ABZ CQ
1990 lifted CQ
2005 S4 6MT
2011 A4 2.0T Avant (ok, it's my wife's car but it's sexy and I love it)
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby 90quattrocoupe » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:23 pm

By all means, try the V6 radiator. It is a single pass single core radiator. The stock V8/A8 radiators are dual core dual pass radiators. The V8 radiator is almost the same size radiator, as the V6, if you remove the end tanks. The A8 radiator is larger.

Let us know how it works out.

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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Mon May 01, 2017 7:39 am

the german wrote:From what I have seen from others, it seems most people seem to run into issues when they run on the track or have air traps in their systems. I'm using an aluminum 1.8T radiator w/ dual pusher fans and as much space between the engine and the radiator as possible, and it has worked great for me. I haven't tracked the car, and frankly I never plan to because (A) its not a race car and (B) the risk:reward ratio doesn't pencil out to me. If this is just going to be a street car, you may be just fine.*

As a note, the front coolant hose can be a big air trap. Be sure there is a bleed nipple on it like the factory A8 hose has.




*Results may vary. You could find that the V6 radiator is not sufficient, in which case you can go for revision B ;)


:thumbsup:


90quattrocoupe wrote:By all means, try the V6 radiator. It is a single pass single core radiator. The stock V8/A8 radiators are dual core dual pass radiators. The V8 radiator is almost the same size radiator, as the V6, if you remove the end tanks. The A8 radiator is larger.

Let us know how it works out.

Greg W.


I'm hoping for the best, and like I said I most likely will fool with an aux radiator before making the change to a big one. Glutton for punishment I guess.

I didn't take any good pictures, but I managed to fit a few fans in the stock location, but mounting them on the radiator and keeping the fan shroud in place, but trimmed.

Image

In that pic the fans are just set in, but later I did some trimming of the fans so the shroud would fit like factory, then proceeded to cut the circular part that sticks out towards motor. On the lower section of the radiator I think I gained at least 2 inches of clearance, so I was very happy about that.

After fitting the radiator with the alternator, I noticed that I made a big mistake! The pulley hits the nipple on the radiator. So... after a few hours I'm just about done with a new alternator mount, that uses a smaller A4 alternator. I hacked up the original anyway when I cut the oil heat exchanger out of it, so its probably a good thing.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
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Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Tue May 02, 2017 7:31 am

Worked out my alternator mount last night just to realize the smaller one I had laying around won't actually work. The pulley uses a smaller belt than the ABZ, and I figured I could just swap the factory one on, but I didn't check the backspacing before swapping/making the mount. :shame:

Good news is, the mount was still usable and it only took a bit of tweaking to make work.

Image

Cooling system is well on the way, finally a pic of the modified fan assembly. I also got the coolant port on the side of the block tapped for 1/2" NPT and intalled a fitting.

Image

Finally my valve cover gaskets came in, and the victor reinz gaskets suck ass. The don't fit tightly on the valve covers, which make them horrible to install.

Image
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Feb 2, 2014
Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby 90quattrocoupe » Tue May 02, 2017 11:48 am

You can use the upper radiator hose on you B4 radiator. You can flip it, so it points toward the upper inlet on the radiator. As for the overflow line on it, when you flip it, cut the nipple off the plastic insert, drill and tape the inside of the plastic insert, and put in a plug.

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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Wed May 03, 2017 7:14 am

90quattrocoupe wrote:You can use the upper radiator hose on you B4 radiator. You can flip it, so it points toward the upper inlet on the radiator. As for the overflow line on it, when you flip it, cut the nipple off the plastic insert, drill and tape the inside of the plastic insert, and put in a plug.

Greg W.


Thanks! Good advice.

I struggled last night to get some sort of exhaust in the car before I start it again. My neighbor from across the street came over a few days ago wondering what I was doing because he said it sounded like I was building a street outlaw... My garage is already 150ft back from the road...

I decided to use the factory V6 exhaust as much as I can. I cut off the first 8 or so inches of the down pipes and mated some 2.25" pipes from the vbands I welded to the V8 exhaust manifolds. Took some pie cuts and a lot of tweaking, but it fits well and should flow well. I will fully weld all that stuff up tonight, and add O2 sensor ports.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby the german » Wed May 03, 2017 2:01 pm

Good plan. My first exhaust used the stock CQ 5 cylinder muffler/rear section and worked just fine. It may be somewhat restricted at the top end, but my butt dyno can't tell much difference.
Kirk

1990 ABZ CQ
1990 lifted CQ
2005 S4 6MT
2011 A4 2.0T Avant (ok, it's my wife's car but it's sexy and I love it)
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Thu May 04, 2017 6:47 am

the german wrote:Good plan. My first exhaust used the stock CQ 5 cylinder muffler/rear section and worked just fine. It may be somewhat restricted at the top end, but my butt dyno can't tell much difference.


I'm trying to keep the cats. They flow pretty well from what I can see, and I don't like a super stinky car. On the B4s the back part of the exhaust is much easier. Making the pipes over the rear axle on my B3 was not fun!

Image

I decided to to tig it, even though it was going to take more time. I'm learning that without a backpurge setup there really is no point. Dissapointed with how it came out appearance wise. It should flow well, and fit perfect.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
Posts: 276
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Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Wed May 10, 2017 7:36 am

Got everything together besides the front of the car, in hopes of getting the engine running well before I started on the radiator. I ran the car for only a few minutes and this happened:

Image

Luckily I had a friend there and avoided catastrophe.. I'm thinking the belt was damaged before and I didn't see it/didn't care. I ordered new everything and will tackle the tbelt this week.

DOES ANYONE HAVE THE CAM LOCATING FIXTURES FOR RENT/BORROW? I think I can get away without the other stuff, but I'd really like to have those.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
Posts: 276
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Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby 90quattrocoupe » Sun May 14, 2017 9:36 pm

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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Mon May 15, 2017 5:46 am

I emailed them. No response. None of the local independent shops that are friendly with our club have them either. I bought a set on Thursday, should be doing the belt tonight.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby Grillage » Mon May 15, 2017 6:39 am

Try force5. I rented the ABH tools from him once
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby 90quattrocoupe » Mon May 15, 2017 2:50 pm

lorge1989 wrote:I emailed them. No response. None of the local independent shops that are friendly with our club have them either. I bought a set on Thursday, should be doing the belt tonight.


I was thinking about getting my own set also. Where did you buy the tools? Crank lock and cam tools?

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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby pete82 » Mon May 15, 2017 8:18 pm

Nice project, i've been looking into v8's lately.

Which breakers yard do you use, i've only been to one in this area
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Tue May 16, 2017 8:02 am

Grillage wrote:Try force5. I rented the ABH tools from him once


Damn too late, already purchased.

90quattrocoupe wrote:
lorge1989 wrote:I emailed them. No response. None of the local independent shops that are friendly with our club have them either. I bought a set on Thursday, should be doing the belt tonight.


I was thinking about getting my own set also. Where did you buy the tools? Crank lock and cam tools?

Greg W.


I only bought the cam lock tools, from Baum tools. Not 100% happy because I couldn't get on bolt in on the passenger side head, the dimensions on the tool were incorrect. I was able to just use the one bolt and pin but still, didn't work as designed. I butchered up the passenger side timing belt cover so I wouldn't be able to use the crank lock anyway. Ended up making my own tool for holding the cam and the crank. If you need to borrow the cam locks, let me know!

pete82 wrote:Nice project, i've been looking into v8's lately.

Which breakers yard do you use, i've only been to one in this area


M and M U pull it is good, old Audi's are rare. Skyway has stuff but prices are high. I have heard great things about Wilberts in Rochester, but never been. Also there are a bunch of sweet yards in the Elmira area.



Got the tools last night and got to work. First thing, the engine was way out of time. Glad I bought the tools.

Image

Had a hell of a time getting that crank bolt out. My impact wouldn't do it. Made a fork looking thing that grabbed the internals of the balancer. First 'tool' I made:

Image

Ended up welding a 2x3x.25" piece of rectangular tubing in its place to hit the ground and hold the balancer, while using about a 7 foot breaker bar. Finally it broke loose. Not before taking one of my breaker bars with it though. What a pain.

Image

A timing belt cover fastener had fallen behind the balancer which is what caused my failure in the first place. :shame:

But the belt went pretty smoothly after that and the car started up, and ran ok. Thinking I have some vacuum leaks still. Somehow I'm going to get this thing to Carlisle... well hopefully.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
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Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby the german » Tue May 16, 2017 12:37 pm

Glad you got it sorted out. I may borrow those cam lock tools at some point to do mine; I cheated by just marking the cams and sprockets when I did mine so I'm sure it's not perfect.
Kirk

1990 ABZ CQ
1990 lifted CQ
2005 S4 6MT
2011 A4 2.0T Avant (ok, it's my wife's car but it's sexy and I love it)
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby pete82 » Tue May 16, 2017 9:29 pm

Yeah i've been to m+m a few times but only seen a few old audi's, shame the website doesn't get updated much I don't have as much time now to get down there to see whats new.

I like finding yards you can a) find stock online easily b) walk around and have a look.
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Wed May 17, 2017 7:37 am

pete82 wrote:Yeah i've been to m+m a few times but only seen a few old audi's, shame the website doesn't get updated much I don't have as much time now to get down there to see whats new.

I like finding yards you can a) find stock online easily b) walk around and have a look.


Yeah defintely. I hate wasting half a day going there just to find out the car is gone.


After some help from a friend, we found out the motor probably was not out of time at all. The harmonic balancer has some rubber on the inside of it, used as a damper I assume, which over time dries out and shinks. This means the TDC mark on it, is not always right. Manually last night I found TDC which was pretty far away from where the crank said it was. More than likely the engine was in time before taking the timing belt off. After that was fixed, a few other issues were sorted and....




Coils 7 and 8 were switched in these vids so it wasn't running that great. :D

Still have a few things to tidy up before I really want to drive it anywhere, but I might just might make it to Carlisle with this thing.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Feb 2, 2014
Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby the german » Wed May 17, 2017 10:29 am

Sweet!! Nice work!

Those rubber harmonic balancers are notorious for shifting their timing marks. I had to re-mark the one on my engine as well.
Kirk

1990 ABZ CQ
1990 lifted CQ
2005 S4 6MT
2011 A4 2.0T Avant (ok, it's my wife's car but it's sexy and I love it)
the german
 
Posts: 584
Joined: Feb 15, 2014
Location: Bellevue, WA

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