91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby Marc » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:06 am

loxxrider wrote:It could be a backup for the two vr sensors on the flywheel though, yes?

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yes. 60-2 rear main setup takes the place of the two bell housing sensors.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:25 pm

Got busy at work today, i'll call you later Mark.
I have the opportunity to buy a used 15K mile gt3071 for $500 or a gt3076 for $600. I'm thinking of purchasing the gt3076, seems like a good deal and a pretty good turbo for what I'm doing. Any thoughts are appreciated. The 76R has a Garrett .82 A/R with a 4 bolt flange and a 4" anti-surge compressor housing
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby loxxrider » Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:18 pm

It just depends what you are hoping for in terms of spool. The 3076 will make at least 15 psi by 3500 which will make decent power, but full boost will be closer to 4k under most conditions. You can make the same power and spool a lot faster with more modern options. Of course, the cost is higher. That's the trade-off.

If it were me, I'd be looking hard at an EFR 6758 or 7163. Both turbos will put you around 400 whp on race fuel, one with more headroom than the other, so you just have to pick whether you want more spool or more power. Personally, I'd run the 7163 or 7064 on a quick spool valve with race gas. I think that'd be a ridiculously fun track setup. Not cheap though of course.

Also, watch out for e85. If you're just running at the track and bring your own drums, why not run a real racing fuel? E85 is cheaper, yes, but I have my doubts about it's ability not to get water logged over long periods of storage. Its a great fuel other than that and the fact that it isn't consistent at the pump. I guess you wouldn't be storing it if you were running in a 24 hour race though. You'll probably use it all!
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:56 pm

Chris I think that you are right that the EFR 7163 is the best turbo, they question just comes down to money. I think that I'd be into that turbo for $2200, investing that type of money would make me want to spent a lot more on the supporting mods. This year I'm looking to step up but that might be a couple of steps up. The lag isn't that big of a deal, I keep it at the redline usually. I'm just looking for bang for the buck. I'm thinking about staying with the stock intake, but uprading the exhaust manifold.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby loxxrider » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:38 pm

That's not a bad path to take at all.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby pilihp2 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:56 pm

This ever get any further?
-Phil
87 5ktq - 20vt
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16 KTM 690 Duke - 2 wheeled hooliganism

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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:04 pm

I've just been collecting parts. I didn't race it this year, but I did the previous year. I never could get together all the parts I wanted so i might change my plans a little with it. I'm waiting on a new place to do the work.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby mrdeye » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:20 pm

Sweet project!! :thumbsup: :drive: :flag: :beer:
Matt
Daily driver: '01 Toyota 4Runner
Project car: '84 Audi Coupe GT
Previous cars:
'95 S6 Avant, '87 5K TQ, '95 VW Golf, '84 VW Jetta turbo diesel, '84 VW GTI
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby PRY4SNO » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:11 pm

Spill the beans, what are the plans for next season? Are you close?

Cool project, love to see more pics/vids of the earlier results as well as future projects.
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|| 2010 Golf Sportwagen TDI /// Farmenwagen
|| 1992 80 quattro 20v /// Eventual AAN'd Winter Sled
|| 1990 Coupe quattro /// Because Racecar

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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Wed May 09, 2018 1:29 pm

Ok, sorry to resurect this old build thread but the time has come to get this car going again. I've been racing some other cars but i've got the itch to race some Lucky Dog races and this is just the car for that. So i need to come up with a plan and get this car ready in about 60 days. What I really need to do is handle the engine, gearbox suspension and electronics. The last time we raced it i believe the timing belt skipped, i'm not sure but I'll know if about 3 days after I get the engine pulled. I really want to shoot for around 500hp, so say 450hp to 550hp seems like a nice target. Here is what i'm thinking, please chime in and point me in the right direction, i only have some old 3b knowledge.
Electronics
Things sure have changed in the last few years now there are a bunch of good options. I was going to go with VEMS, but i'd love something a little more polished that has good dash options and solid state power controllers. I've got it down to a couple of options, Maxxecu, Link and ECU Master black. I'd love to go with Motec or Life but this is a cheaper build and i don't need to much high tech gadgetry. Right now the ECU Master Black edition has the lead, looks like a good ecu in a nice aluminum case for around $1000, not bad. I really like them also because they have there own display options plus play well with the Race Dash 2 setup and they have a responsibly priced PMU (Power management) the pmu 16 with CAN controller, it actually with work with the life button pad also. This way they all work together nice.
Anybody have any ideas about this??
Engine
Assuming that it's not worse than I thought i should be able to salvage this engine with not tomuch work. I'm thinking about just refreshing it a bit but leave it all stock internals. I'll see what the head looks like hopefully not too bad. Really i'm thinking just upgrade the intake manifold, exhaust manifold, turbo, ditch the distributer, some sort of upgraded coil setup.
Intake manifold:
The wagner cast aluminum looks nice or should i go with a fabbed aluminum?
exhaust manifold
Probably stainless tube setup with v bands, i like the look of the iroz manifolds
Turbo
The borg efr looks pretty good. Good deals on the EFR 7163. I don't want an internal wastegate though, so i'm thinking they have an undivided .85 A/R vband exhaust side that looks good. I'd be on the top of the flow for this turbo but i like the small b1 housing. I also think that i can get one for under $1500 complete.
Downpipe, wastegate
I like the look of the old audi wastegate, i want it divorced and atmosphere dumped, sounds neat! down pipe is easy, just V-band and i'll run the exhaust through the firewall and out the side door.
Ignition
either coil on plug or the firewall mounted coils look like my options

SUSPENSION
Really need help here. Looks like the 2 bennett option with the caster plates is really the only option. It has the koni struts. Any other options?


Thanks again for any help, i just kind of brainstorming here. I need to start ordering parts soon!

Here is the ecu setup:
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Wed May 09, 2018 1:42 pm

I've been thinking about using this for the crank trigger, seems like the best setup
http://www.efiexpress.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=137
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby audifreakjim » Wed May 09, 2018 1:50 pm

Good call on most of it, including that trigger. The Wagner manifold is solid, can't go wrong.

I have been looking at the ECUmasters stuff as well, go for it and report back!

For suspension, think about KW, you can get them pretty easy now from what I hear.

I am running universal Ground control caster plates. It's a bit of work to weld them in, but they just work.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Wed May 09, 2018 2:14 pm

Jimmy,
Your car is amazing, i've read through the build post in the past, absolutely love it! Thanks for your tips. I've seen the thread on here about the universal ground control plates looks really good, i wonder if the fab kit is still available. KW would be really nice, do you know if anyone has done it? i looked at the website and they don't have any audi listings, i wonder what part numbers people have used. I need to read through your thread again, what gearbox do you have? I was thinking about upgrading to an 01e box, i currently have the 016 4.11 gear with torsen 5 speed. 01e would alloy the high bias upgrade. I'm pretty set on the ECU Master, i'll let you know what happens.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby audifreakjim » Wed May 09, 2018 2:55 pm

gregplatt wrote:Jimmy,
Your car is amazing, i've read through the build post in the past, absolutely love it! Thanks for your tips. I've seen the thread on here about the universal ground control plates looks really good, i wonder if the fab kit is still available. KW would be really nice, do you know if anyone has done it? i looked at the website and they don't have any audi listings, i wonder what part numbers people have used. I need to read through your thread again, what gearbox do you have? I was thinking about upgrading to an 01e box, i currently have the 016 4.11 gear with torsen 5 speed. 01e would alloy the high bias upgrade. I'm pretty set on the ECU Master, i'll let you know what happens.


Thanks man. You want an 01e fyf or gbe from the b5 3.0 cars.

You can get the kw’s, check the small chassis group on FB. Chris Seabird has posted links a few times. I think it may have been these guys
https://fifteen52.com/products/kw-v3-fo ... -urquattro
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby pilihp2 » Wed May 09, 2018 3:24 pm

quick correction Jim, B6 3.0 cars
also, i'm not sure KW's are available for large chassis cars due to them having single piece front struts and shocks in the rear vs struts. I know they were available at one point and you had to send them your front strut housings (like 3 weeks lead time or something going to and from Europe)

Suspension on these cars is a bit of a pain to get figured out as there are really no options out there besides custom stuff. Working at the moment and also moving so not much time after hours but I'll try to get you some info this evening on what you can do suspension wise to really improve. 2Bennet is the same stuff that you'd do if you were doing it custom, just more expensive.

Are you running a stock rear diff? a rear diff upgrade helps immensely with these cars.
-Phil
87 5ktq - 20vt
91 v8 5spd - I guess I'm a masochist
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16 KTM 690 Duke - 2 wheeled hooliganism

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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby audifreakjim » Wed May 09, 2018 3:41 pm

pilihp2 wrote:quick correction Jim, B6 3.0 cars
also, i'm not sure KW's are available for large chassis cars due to them having single piece front struts and shocks in the rear vs struts. I know they were available at one point and you had to send them your front strut housings (like 3 weeks lead time or something going to and from Europe)

Suspension on these cars is a bit of a pain to get figured out as there are really no options out there besides custom stuff. Working at the moment and also moving so not much time after hours but I'll try to get you some info this evening on what you can do suspension wise to really improve. 2Bennet is the same stuff that you'd do if you were doing it custom, just more expensive.

Are you running a stock rear diff? a rear diff upgrade helps immensely with these cars.


Sorry, meant B6. And assumed this was a small chassis despite the subject, lol
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Wed May 09, 2018 3:43 pm

Phil,
Thanks i appreciate the time to help me. Suspension has been the real issue with this car. The first leagues we raced it in wouldn't allow us to change the suspension, even the springs, so with the weight loss it was just horrible. We are still running the orignal front struts, they are the UFO strut setups. Slightly modified for the big brembo calipers. I believe the 2bennett setup adds rear coilovers as an option. I agree that they seem a little overpriced, but they did all the work figuring things out and it saves time. Would love to do the KW setup though.
The rear diff is stock, what do you run? Are you thinking a Wavetrac or something?
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Wed May 09, 2018 3:47 pm

I wonder if it makes sense to just go with a reman like this instead of trying to source a used one
http://advancedautomotion.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/194_52_143/products_id/320
Looks like some nice upgrades.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby vt10vt » Thu May 10, 2018 9:22 am

I just did a high bias center diff in my B5 S4 and WOW what a difference. I've just been running auto-x with my local club, but the difference was night and day; get on the gas and the car actually rotates.

I did the mod myself, you can message sellingB5stuff on Vortex for the washers, but I had a later style diff so I machined the washers he provided down to match the thickness of the OE teflon coated washers. I do get some popping/locking on tight turns but it's 100% worth it (especially if you're only tracking the car).
-Shawn C.
2001 S4 6spd Avant blk/blk - stock daily
2002 01E B6 A4 Built FYF, Built 1.8T, HX35 ~330whp
1989 MC-1 200 Avant- MS1 -Gone but will never forget her lessons
1987 5ktq Sedan - Best $500 beater ever
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby pilihp2 » Fri May 18, 2018 1:34 pm

So I have a little downtime at the moment. Love Read-Only Fridays.

Chris(loxxrider) listed alot of stuff one page back. I'm going to roll out everything that I would do and am planning on doing in the future. From everything I've researched this will really be the ideal way to do suspension with our limited resources.

2Bennett sources all their stuff off the shelf. Everything they sell is essentially the exact same as what you'd buy and piece together with a custom coilover kit. Their stuff isn't bad, you just may pay more than pieceing it yourself. An advantage to 2bennett is that you don't have to do much research, and the way they setup their coils has proven to be good.


First step would be the front suspension
You really need to get Koni race strut and not just a normal factory spec koni strut.

Here is a PDF that lists Koni''s available race struts
http://performanceshock.com/KONI_86_series_race.pdf

The 8610-1436 or 1437 strut is a Single adjustable (rebound only) race strut. If you're trying to spend a little less this would be the way to go.
You can also go to the 8611 series which is Double adjustable vs single adjustable. This would be the most Ideal strut to go with for a racing only application.

Both these struts come in different length versions as you can see if you look at the PDF.
I'd personally go with the 8611-1259 or the single adjustable 8610-1437. Those are both shorter versions of the factory style koni strut. You may be able to go with the even shorter 8611-1257 or the other 8610-1436 but you may want to measure before going with the even shorter versions.

These cars are A LOT better with more caster and Camber. In order to get the most caster and camber you can you'll need to get this thing pretty low to the ground. This will force the suspension into a higher camber position.

When going to the race struts you'll need to shorten your factory strut tubes by the same amount of difference between a factory length strut and the new race strut. So you'll need to cut and then weld back together. At the same time you will want to drop your steering arm as low as it can go, so cut the welds off the steering arm and then reweld it lower. I've seen some people just cut out the entire section inbetween the steering arm and the knuckle and then just weld it back together. That's probably the easiest way to do it, I've just never done it myself.

According to who I talked to at Koni, these struts are valved for around 400lb springs from the factory. Ideally you should run 450lb springs in the front. You could send these off to get revalved for 450lb springs but I don't think you'd run into any issuese. I run 450lb springs in the front on my factory valved konis and have been fine for 4 or so years so far (fingers crossed they dont blow tomorrow now that I said something)

I don't recall what you have for Camber plates but you really need SOMETHING. Whether it be 2Bennet, or Thuppu's plates from over on S2forum, you really need something so you can get some caster at it.

When you lower this thing you lower front control arms are going to be at a really shitty angle. To correct this, you can get a balljoint extender like these guys https://unixperformance.bigcartel.com/p ... 2-mk3-4cyl
The issue here that others have seen is that the balljoint hole in the strut housing is not at a straight angle, so when you extend it, it pushes the balljoint into the brake disc. You may need to remove the heat shield to correct this. Others have had to go so far as spacing the brake disc out.
This is not as required as getting the car on good coilovers and camber plates. but definitely a good idea to do

You definitely should be upgrading all the bushings at the same time.
First step I'd start with is some powerflex control arm bushings
https://powerflexusa.com/audiv8type44an ... 3-402.aspx
They actually replace the rubber bushing with a bearing. Very good idea as the front suspension design on these cars blows.

You can takeup some steering slack by replacing the tierod arm bushings
https://powerflexusa.com/audiv8type44an ... 3-405.aspx

And then the outer control arm bushing and the swaybar bushings should be replaced too, you know, cause racecar
https://powerflexusa.com/audiv8type44an ... assis.aspx
https://powerflexusa.com/audiv8type44an ... 3-401.aspx

While you have it all apart, the subframe would be a VERY good idea to get refreshed. Replacing my factory rubber bushings with AK Motorsport aluminum ones made a HUGE difference in turn-in
https://www.akmotorsport.net/shop/all-p ... ud-v8-d11/

I'd steer clear of AK motorsport bushings for the front of these cars as they don't seem to be engineered very thoroughly for this suspension design.


Now for the rear

There really isn't any easily available (that I can find) rear shocks for these cars like there are for the front struts. What you can do is get a set of 80-2630Sport rear shocks, send them off to a Koni rebuilder, and have them spec it to the same specs as whatever front race strut you pick. This is probably the easiest solution. I know there are lots of koni race shocks out there, but I've not been able to find any that have the right dimensions.
Others may recommend running the Qa1 rear shocks vs the Koni. I will disagree as everything I've read from HotRod guys and American car guys running Koni VS Qa1 says that the Koni is better for anything racing. I have no frame of reference as I've never ran the Qa1's. just IMO. Obviously different cars, but should still apply.

Since the car is gutted you could easily get away with 500LB springs in the rear and that may even be overkill. You'll definitely want a little difference on spring rates from front to rear. Stiffer in the rear makes it rotate easier. Rotate=GOOD since these cars understeer like mad.

You'll definitely want to replace rear bushings as well, cause, ya know, race car.
Rear control arm kit
https://www.akmotorsport.net/shop/all-p ... -c3-44-mm/

Rear Subframe Alu Bushings
https://www.akmotorsport.net/shop/all-p ... s-rear-c4/

Rear diff bushings
https://www.akmotorsport.net/shop/all-p ... 100-c4-s4/
https://www.akmotorsport.net/shop/all-p ... di-v8-d11/

I'm currently running a V8 Rear diff which is a torsen diff instead of the factory Locker diff. I'd definitely recommend finding and installing one. This has changed the way the car rotates on power a TON. They are known for being weak, but I have yet to blow mine apart. Don't launch the car and don't lift any wheels under load and you should be okay. If you have the cash, look into a Wavetrac rear diff as it'll be leagues better than the Torsen and much much stronger.
Like Shawn said, doing the high bias center diff mod also will help with rotation. I haven't done it myself but plan to when I finally take the time to swap in my 01e.


Unrelated to suspension. If you're going to be swapping in an 01e you may struggle with front axle issues as there are none off the shelf that easily fit the passenger side. I've heard of people just stuffing the factory 20020v passenger axle in there real tight but I'm sure that's not great for CV joints.

Links to Koni Race struts


Single adjustable
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000RU7A1A/?c ... _lig_dp_it

Double Adjustable
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000RU61PQ/?c ... _lig_dp_it

Rear shock
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000RU3VMM/?c ... _lig_dp_it


Google the part numbers and you will be able to find it elsewhere for possibly a better price.


Certified Koni Rebuilders. My preferred is ProParts from what I've spoken with them about, but go with whoever you'd prefer.

Performance Shock - (800) 965-5664 http://performanceshock.com/index.php?m ... ts_id=1155
TrueChoice - (888) 566-4722 http://truechoicekoniracingservices.com/
Pro Parts West -(818) 888-8904 http://propartsusa.com/
-Phil
87 5ktq - 20vt
91 v8 5spd - I guess I'm a masochist
05 S4 - "Daily"
16 KTM 690 Duke - 2 wheeled hooliganism

-Terrible at responding to PM's
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