Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed

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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro

Postby Aktapod » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:22 pm

themagellan wrote:luke........ it's ok....

Nooooooo! That's impossible!!!!

Okay, so I caved a little. :) Oil pan gaskets, x2 rear main seal, and flange gasket are on the way.

I admit that the main hesitation is cost for the rack. I'm on the fence, and delaying reassembly is enough to set me against it. As much as I want to give both cars the full treatment, I think it would be more prudent to hold off on the rack until the summer. School's coming up, along with my last day at my current job, so the ~$400 for the rack would have to come from the 200's suspension funds. 200 > V8 for now
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- 1991 200 20vt
- 1992 Audi V8 (Papa Jürgen's)
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby Aktapod » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:28 pm

Well, I dropped the oil pan and my heart dropped with it. Coolant. :wah:

I followed a small stream up the front of the block on the driver's side (cyl 5). If I had caught it before the swap, I'd have aborted and ditched the car, but now it's worthless to sell and I've got time invested, so save it I must!

Working out the price of a head gasket kit, timing set, and associated machining and tool costs comes to a not insignificant $700 (or $1000 if I have the heads rebuilt with a 3 angle valve job)

That's actually better than I thought, but I dunno if it's worth it on this particular engine. The oil pressure hasn't always been great (shows slightly under 1 bar at idle when hot) and Audi made these blocks basically unrebuildable, so I think I might be better off finding another engine instead.

Here are the options I'm considering right now:

El cheapo rebuild. No timing, just head gaskets, mill heads, A8 water pump and new thermostat. $400. It should be mentioned that the timing belt looks brand spanking new on this thing. I just want to make sure it runs cooler, since the temps would creep up at idle and may have contributed to the problem in the first place

New ABH swap. Pros: Easy, cheap(ish), quick, and I can run the current ABH till it blows up and make a sweet table; Cons: Hard to find, unknown history

ABZ Swap. Pros: Easy, cheap, available everywhere, can easily swap to S8 motor if I find one. Cons: Not bolt-in, unknown history, long down time

Any thoughts?
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- 1991 200 20vt
- 1992 Audi V8 (Papa Jürgen's)
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby pilihp2 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:55 pm

Wish you were closer I'd just give you my ABH that I can't get rid of.
Sorry to hear man!
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby vt10vt » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:13 pm

That sucks. How about El Ghetto rebuild- don't even pull the heads, just unbolt them, loosen timing belt, lift heads, pull out gaskets, slide in new gaskets, bolt back together. I know it sounds sketchy but myself and Dana have both done that on a 10v with great success. Not sure if the V8's bank angle would actually let you do it or not but I'd definitely be looking at that option hard if I were in your shoes.

Sucks but glad you aren't giving up on it!
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby dana » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:20 am

Before taking drastic measures, have you considered that it could be something else before tearing it down?

Are v8's known for HG issues? I didn't think so, but don't know that much about them.

Is there another reason to suspect headgaskets besides the coolant in the oil? (overheating, pressurized coolant system, hydrocarbon smell in coolant reservior?)

Is there any other way for coolant to get into the oil?

I dont really know the v8 very well, does it have a coolant to oil heat exchanger?

Are there areas near the waterpump that a bad seal or gasket could cause the mixing?

Just making sure you don't do a HG for no reason if it is something else. We have all done things like this before only to find that we still get coolant in the oil and realize its coming from elsewhere! :bangshead:

And yes, I have done the "slip it in" headgasket method, and it did work just fine. We did it because the thought of pulling all the exhaust and intake manifold off a horrible, rusty $500 10vt seemed very uninviting.
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby themagellan » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:15 am

+2 (haggard method and also don't believe its a HG)
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby Grillage » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:55 am

I'm trying to think of where they could co-mingle other than the HG.

The oil cooler is an air cooler only - no coolant.
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby Aktapod » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:28 am

I'm game to try El Ghetto! This was, after all, a beater V8 when it started.

I will investigate further, but I don't know these blocks well enough to determine what other causes there may be. I tried to take a pic, but it doesn't really show up well. The stream looks to come straight down from the head area, but space is too tight to see where it starts for sure. It may be prudent to take the head off just to have a better look.

It is entirely possible the poor thing overheated. It never threw an alarm, but once in stand-still traffic in mid-summer, it nearly pegged the gauge. The gauge always read on the high side, but that was the one time I was scared for the longevity of the engine. I made sure to avoid situations where it could happen again until I could install an A8 water pump to fix the hot idle issue.
Image
Last edited by Aktapod on Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- 1991 200 20vt
- 1992 Audi V8 (Papa Jürgen's)
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby dana » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:56 am

Who knows how accurate that guage is, but you are below 120C there, which is not ideal, but I would not consider that dangerous for intermittent stints.

The ghetto headgasket fix only works if the old gasket comes out clean with all its bits attached, obviously.
current:
-mk4 tdi wagon with some mods
-TDI b3 90q, holset turbo, be strong little connecting rods!
-the turbo tractor
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-20vt swapped 90q winter beater
-efi 10vt 4kq
-way too many other long gone urs's, 200's 4000's, b5's
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby loxxrider » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:39 pm

Are there not coolant hoses that run through the valley? I almost thought the worst had happened with my M5 when changing the thermostat. It was leaking coolant down between the Trans and the block. Turns out it was coming from the thermostat which is at the front of the block. Crazy, but V8s are tricky that way. I've been fooled similarly with my Cayenne and my 530i (both with coolant components located in or near the valley.

Of course, that doesn't explain the oil in the coolant lol
-Chris

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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby Aktapod » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:37 pm

Perhaps I should clarify. The stream I see at the front of the block is inside the sump. There was no coolant leak this whole time, but with the oil pans gone, I came back to find this under the engine, so it appears to be actively leaking (I know it's the wrong coolant; never got around to flushing it)

Image
Image
Image

You can see the stream going up, but it's obscured by a boss, so I can't follow it to the start

As far as I can tell, there are 3 or 4 possibilities

- Head gasket
- Cracked block
- Coolant leak, and an oil leak letting the coolant into the sump
- Maybe freeze plug? Don't think any go inward, though
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- 1991 200 20vt
- 1992 Audi V8 (Papa Jürgen's)
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby loxxrider » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:59 am

Ooooooh I see. Well then, I'd count on head gasket.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
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'12 X3
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby viridia » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:32 am

It's been my experience that the head gaskets on a hot V8 will fail first; pulled a U-Haul trailer across the country with my ABH and measured three 0 psi cylinders when the trip was complete. Pulled the heads, purchased new gaskets, and it's back to normal. You'll find that the kit 077198012B is cheapest on eBay.

Also, I'm skeptical that your overheating problem will be completely solved by a different water pump. Temperatures that high mean your electric fan isn't coming on when it's supposed to, or not stepping up speeds correctly. First verify the three fan speeds work - pull the three fan relays and test each of the three speeds by jumping the power between terminals 30 and 87 with a wire. My ABH had this same problem, and I felt really stupid once I figured it out...2nd fan speed relay was in the wrong socket.
87 4k, 90 f350, 91 v8, 93 v8, 04 s4
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby Aktapod » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:01 am

It's kinda funny; I think the head gasket let go following my last drive. The coolant and oil were pretty separated instead of chocolate milk, and there's none to be found in the oil cooler.

I would believe that about the fan! I just wanted to take care of those things while I'm in there, since I know the A8 pump does in fact help circulate at idle. I've heard the electric fan kick on, but it's always a bit later than I think it should. I'll definitely try your test it once it's running. I did check out the viscous fan coupling when it was hot and it seems to be working as it should, so that'd leave the electric fan, the thermostat, and the water pump as the remaining culprits
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- 1991 200 20vt
- 1992 Audi V8 (Papa Jürgen's)
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby cuatrokoop » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:50 pm

Good luck on doing the HG job, manual V8's are LOADS of fun, just keep that in mind. Big sedans with manuals are fun to surprise people with ;)

Did you get your flywheel sorted? I've had two 5spd V8 engine'd vehicles (my old convert and Ben's converted CQ), both with the Fidanza. It wraps up RIGHT NOW. I was going to run an ABZ flex plate and 034 insert on my CQ (in fact I have all of that stuff, still in their shipping boxes), as it would afford better on/off throttle transitions. I do love how both the PT and ABH respond with the Fidanza, my buddy with a 2014 or 2015 Mustang GT (dyno tuned, cat-back, intake, 6spd car) was shocked at how fast the ABH in the CQ reacts.
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby Aktapod » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:44 pm

Flywheel is sorted for good now! In fact, the car is almost ready to be driven out the garage with the Fidanza unit (save for the head gasket).

I did run into an issue with the starter overshooting the teeth on the flywheel and gouging the flywheel nice and good. Given the amount it overshot, I'd wager the flywheel was intended to be used with one of the flex plate spacers I pulled off with the auto.

Image
Image
Image

Unfortunately, the starter remained permanently engaged to the flywheel after this. I was just about ready to rip the trans out to fix it when Magellan and his beautiful mind gave me the idea to simply shim the starter instead. So that's what I did! I moved the starter back 4mm and found it worked perfectly!

Finally, I ripped out the auto harness and bypassed the neutral starter lockout relay and gave it a go.



Still need some things to make it roadworthy, but I'm within a day's work of driving it out the garage :drive:
Last edited by Aktapod on Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kevin (Sven)
- 1991 200 20vt
- 1992 Audi V8 (Papa Jürgen's)
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby Grillage » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:20 am

I had to run without that spacer on my coupe V8 because it pushed the pin and starter ring a little too far out of the sensor windows. Shimming the starter is the right move

sounds great!
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby 88a5tq » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:00 am

Great work so far! I've been following along :)
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed (In process)

Postby Aktapod » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:28 am

Thanks guys! Here's a clip from today with a bit more substance ;)



Only part throttle and short-shifted for the sake of the new clutch, but I had to get some footage before I put the exhaust back on
Last edited by Aktapod on Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kevin (Sven)
- 1991 200 20vt
- 1992 Audi V8 (Papa Jürgen's)
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed

Postby 88a5tq » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:10 pm

Don't put the exhaust back on! You'll another it's beautiful soul :D
Sounds incredible!
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed

Postby Grillage » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:32 pm

Awesome
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed

Postby chaloux » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:37 pm

Aktapod wrote:Thanks guys! Here's a clip from today with a bit more substance ;)



Only part throttle and short-shifted for the sake of the new clutch, but I had to get some footage before I put the exhaust back on


Tapatalk friendly :)
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed

Postby Aktapod » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:50 am

Thanks Matt! I knew I'd get it wrong, haha. Fixed the previous posts

Exhaust is back on, so it doesn't sound nearly as badass, but my ears won't bleed anymore. Unfortunately, it looks as if the driveshaft will need to be balanced. There's vibration that occurs at certain speeds, regardless of RPM.

On the bright side, I don't think the ECU is in limp mode! I was really not sure whether this would work or not, but I'm just running a copy of the manual 4.2 chip from Europe in the auto ECU with auto harness. The transmission harness and TCU have been removed entirely, and it runs great!
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- 1991 200 20vt
- 1992 Audi V8 (Papa Jürgen's)
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed

Postby chaloux » Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:55 am

I meant to say as well that it sounds freaking dope with no exhaust. And squats!
Matt

01 Allroad 6speed - RS4 clutch, catless downpipes, stuklr tune
04 Jetta TDI - DC stage I clutch/14lb fw
DEATH by rust - 96 Audi A6 Avant 2.5l TDI
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES
DEAD :( - 1996 S6 mit TDI
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Re: Kevin's V8 Quattro 5-speed

Postby Aktapod » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:17 pm

chaloux wrote:I meant to say as well that it sounds freaking dope with no exhaust. And squats!

I know! It's crazy how much punch it has with very little throttle input. I've yet to try it full throttle :twisted: Short gearing is fun.
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- 1991 200 20vt
- 1992 Audi V8 (Papa Jürgen's)
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