07K + slushbox?

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07K + slushbox?

Postby elaw » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:45 pm

Okay I know this is heresy but I'm going to ask anyway... has anyone ever contemplated mating an 07K with a quattro auto box?

Much as I hate to admit it, I'm slowly becoming an old fart and much of the pleasure of driving a stick-shift car now eludes me... especially as 99% of the driving in my 80 is on congested suburban side roads. I once estimated that on my 10-mile commute to work, I use the clutch 70 times... and that's just one way!

So I'm beginning to wonder if when I put the 07K in my car, whether I might be happier with an autobox.

I suspect finding a flex plate might be challenging but taking a step back, would a quattro autobox even bolt to the 07K? I don't know exactly what autobox yet, it seems like B5 S4 ones (5HP19) are fairly cheap and plentiful. Although a 6HP19 or even a 6HP26 would be interesting...

Oh one more thing: does anyone know anything about the length of the auto trannies vs. ones like 016 and 01E? I figure it's a given that the length of the front driveshafts will be an issue, but I'm wondering about the center one.
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Re: 07K + slushbox?

Postby SEStone » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:57 pm

The only autoboxes I would at all consider would be the 6spds in B7/C6 models. Everything else is fragile and shifts really slowly. Like, why bother building a strong, responsive performance engine if you're just going to connect it to a mediocre transmission. You would also need to be using an OEM ECU to have any real chance at making something like that shift properly.

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Re: 07K + slushbox?

Postby audifreakjim » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:59 am

How about a B8 S4 DSG box?
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Re: 07K + slushbox?

Postby elaw » Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:15 pm

At this point all options are on the table, although to rework the old saying, price *is* an object. I'm still suffering from sticker shock on all the 07K bits! And as far as I can tell, the 5-speed transmissions are far cheaper than the newer ones, DSG or otherwise.

One consideration is the computer to control the thing... since I'm running Megasquirt on the engine, any type of OE transmission controller that requires communication with the OE engine ECU won't work. It looks to me like on the 6HPxx transmissions the ECU is actually inside the transmission which to me is a minus, although the fact those transmissions are apparently smaller and lighter and have fewer parts are all pluses.

I'm figuring if I go the auto route I'll probably end up making my own control computer for the transmission which could actually be beneficial. I suspect the poor responsiveness of the 5-speeds is more likely related to the programming of the ECU rather than the transmission's design.
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Re: 07K + slushbox?

Postby ChrisAudi80 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:24 am

elaw wrote:At this point all options are on the table, although to rework the old saying, price *is* an object. I'm still suffering from sticker shock on all the 07K bits! And as far as I can tell, the 5-speed transmissions are far cheaper than the newer ones, DSG or otherwise.

One consideration is the computer to control the thing... since I'm running Megasquirt on the engine, any type of OE transmission controller that requires communication with the OE engine ECU won't work. It looks to me like on the 6HPxx transmissions the ECU is actually inside the transmission which to me is a minus, although the fact those transmissions are apparently smaller and lighter and have fewer parts are all pluses.

I'm figuring if I go the auto route I'll probably end up making my own control computer for the transmission which could actually be beneficial. I suspect the poor responsiveness of the 5-speeds is more likely related to the programming of the ECU rather than the transmission's design.


The 5HP19FLA should bolt up like a 01E/01A manual and is fairly strong for the older ZF autos. Add a decent size cooler and it should be OK. I believe you have to modify something on the trans side anyway to bolt it to the 07K. The Driveshaft is slightly shorter for the auto IIRC.

MS has a TCU-like board for controlling an auto. http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/4L60e.html
Or you could check out this place: https://www.powertraincontrolsolutions. ... ontroller/
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Re: 07K + slushbox?

Postby elaw » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:40 am

Thanks for the info!

Other than massive lack of coolness it seems like there are a lot of negatives to this. The weight issue (do those trannies really weigh 350 lbs?!) I knew about, but it seems that controlling them is much harder than with older transmissions. I don't think the megashift could handle it, and that other controller costs a grand. Getting a center driveshaft modded to fit or having a custom one made would also be a costly and difficult proposition.
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Re: 07K + slushbox?

Postby ChrisAudi80 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:08 pm

elaw wrote:Thanks for the info!

Other than massive lack of coolness it seems like there are a lot of negatives to this. The weight issue (do those trannies really weigh 350 lbs?!) I knew about, but it seems that controlling them is much harder than with older transmissions. I don't think the megashift could handle it, and that other controller costs a grand. Getting a center driveshaft modded to fit or having a custom one made would also be a costly and difficult proposition.

No problem.
I was researching using automatics a few years ago with standalone. The conclusion was that it's doable, but a big PITA. The only easy way around it is using a piggyback. Like MAP-ECU3 (which I used), Greddy E-manage Ultimate, AEM, HKS etc.

This has a lot of advantages. It can control boost, fuel (indirectly), timing (relative), leave stock wiring, let ECU handle AC kickdown, idle and all the hassle stuff like the ECU-TCU comms. You can go MAFless. I did that with my old 2.0 auto that was in the 80.
Disadvantages are that most don't think its cool, its usually open loop and you don't have full control.
And yeah, the 5HP19s are HUGE, even the FWD units. However, the 4HP18FLA which is used in the AAN automatics and the C4 V6 quattro automatics in the US are nearly the same size as a 01E, but maybe a little heavier. The downside is that they are only able to handle 400nm reliably. Maybe a little more if you shift kit it.
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Re: 07K + slushbox?

Postby the german » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:28 pm

5HP19FLA are cheap and readily available in many cars at the junkyard, and they will handle to torque. That said, they are an older slush box but for cruising that doesn't really matter.

On the other hand (and this is a far more complex option to make work), the 8-speed ZF box that is in my wife's b8 A4 is in my opinion the best auto I have ever driven. And empirically they are stout. I know of a certain tuning company who blew up an engine with no damage to the trans while testing to find the limits of how hard they could shift it. That was in a 2.0TFSI with ~390 HP.
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Re: 07K + slushbox?

Postby elaw » Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:14 am

That's cool! Unfortunately it looks like the final drive ratio on those is different from the 4.11 or 3.89 that's available for the B3.

Of course I could just drop $15K and get the transmission with the car attached to it! :D
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Re: 07K + slushbox?

Postby the german » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:59 am

speaking of that, which b3 quattro's came with a 3.89 final drive?

Edit- found it: 93-94 b4 90
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Re: 07K + slushbox?

Postby elaw » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:25 pm

Also any one that's had an urquattro rear diff transplanted into it. ;)
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Re: 07K + slushbox?

Postby the german » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:26 pm

elaw wrote:That's cool! Unfortunately it looks like the final drive ratio on those is different from the 4.11 or 3.89 that's available for the B3.

Of course I could just drop $15K and get the transmission with the car attached to it! :D



I just realized I assumed you were referring to the 8-speed, but didn't actually say that. The 5HP19FLA found in auto b5 cars is 4.11 final drive (for some reason a lot of online data sheets list this incorrectly as 3.73) so it is a direct swap to mate with a b3 rear diff. I will be doing a 1.8T + Auto swap into my lifted car soon so I'll be sure to post any issues I run into.

Edit: 1.8T & 2.8 TIP in a b5 are all 4.11; the b4 S4 TIP is 3.89 (just to clarify)
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Re: 07K + slushbox?

Postby elaw » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:43 pm

Yeah I meant the 8-speed. I've got a 3.89 in the car now and a 4.11 on the shelf, but from what I read the 8-speeds are 3.5 something? Which of course would not be compatible with anything I have.

In any event, I just pulled the trigger on one of Hank's 07K flywheels so it looks like for this iteration I'll be sticking with the stick. ;)
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