New guy, old car

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New guy, old car

Postby Oldestof11 » Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:46 pm

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So I was recommended to come here by a previous owner of my car. Some history as I know it.

I bought this car a week ago. I bought it with it not running but it had a solid body. When turning over, I heard the unmistakable clunk of a rod issue. So I bought it for $1200 and got it loaded up on the trailer.

I have a WH1C for it to be put on. I'm looking for people's experience in which rods and pistons I need to build a reliable bottom end for 1000hp. The WH1C is just for the time being before I go 400 framed Borg.

I see some I-beams but I don't know which to buy.

Whose pistons are best for this? Stock rings or something better?

I'm assuming stock rod bearings will be fine unless you guys know otherwise.

I'm coming from the Cummins world where evening is ok up to 800hp then it's a rod change with modified stock pistons.

Thanks everyone.

Also, any good build threads to read?
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby PRY4SNO » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:28 pm

Nice buy!

And welcome to the forum.

You could basically buy any rods you want, to be honest. SCAT are cheap and should be good for about 200hp/litre, which puts you just over 1000hp. There are other options out there people go with, such as DM Forged, Carrillo, Pauter and others. Take your pick, pretty hard to miss.

Stock rings should be fine. Pistons, well, I'm partial to the Mahle hybrid alloy versions as being sold by Issam. They're currently on round two of a group buy.
http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread ... post893274
They blend the OEM and race alloys to allow for the properties of the best of both worlds and avoid the shortcomings of either. Otherwise, I was going to buy Wossner pistons as they control the entire supply chain and manufacturing process in house as compared to being manufactured and possibly machined in China like most other brands. I ended up with Wiseco with my build, but that's not exactly like sitting at the kid's table either. JE are good, Diamond are good, etc. Get a slipper skirt design and balance the rotating assembly and you should be golden.

If you're building for 1000 hp, best to buy and build everything at once. New ARP hardware, coated bearings, OEM gasket set, MLS head gasket, valve train, etc.

Good build threads... well take your pick around here haha.

There's Jim Green's Vomit Comet, Chris' Revver project, Darin's 80tq, Hank's Urq, John Iroz's Her Mars Urq, Pops' Stroker, Matt Chaloux's 4FOXSN8 4kqt build, Dana's 80tq, Chris Brydon/Wheeljack's eS2, HybridHatch/Dave's multiple eS2 builds, of course Javad's 80tq build on MG/80tq.com, Chris' (Varia) S2 conversion, the guys from the PNW (axldgr8, The German (v8, I know), Afterthought, 85oceanic, etc), anything by Martin Pajak (ralleyquattro/quattro.ca), the SQ copy builds from Ontario, Hap's Da Green Monsta, Scubadave's build, amdisthebest/Nick's 200 sedan and Avant, 123quattro's 200 20v, araipilot's build, and on and on and on. haha. That should be a good start. I'm barely scratching the surface.
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby loxxrider » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:22 pm

Welcome.

400 framed Borg eh? In my opinion, unless you are gunning for more like 1000 at the wheels rather than at the crankshaft, there is nothing in the Borg Warner 400 range that would be useful to you. For 1000 whp, the new Borg 72 is currently the best option (it flows as much as the old S476). For 1000 chp, I'd look into the 300 range. Especially since the entire 300 range has been re-aero'd recently (denoted by SX-E), so the upper end of the S300 range now flows what the lower end of the old 400 range used to.

Also, for 1000 chp, look at the FP6466TZ like Matt Sgambelluri is running. THAT is the turbo I'd run if I wasn't gunning for 10k+ RPM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeZohNfIRi8

As far as pistons and rods, that depends what kind of fuel you want to run and how much power you truly want. I think the sentiment that pretty much any rods will do is true at 1000 chp. However if you really want the best, Pauter machine and Carrillo would be among the top choices. As far as pistons go, check out Jeff's latest offering if you will be running strictly race fuel (or E85). FourRingPerformance.com

Coated rod bearings never hurt anyone... stock would be fine too though so long as the clearances are up to spec.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby loxxrider » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:29 pm

Also, to narrow down that build thread list to 1000+ chp builds on an AAN or 3B you should be looking at Nick's sedan (amdisthebest), his brother Matt's urs6, my 200 20v sedan revver build, Hap's urs4, and Jeff Gerners work. He doesn't have a build thread here, but he does have a 260 mph urs4 and has or is building most of the high powered engines around here these days. He has made some great posts here regarding engine building specific to these engines.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby audifreakjim » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:55 pm

I'd highly consider a dry sump at that level since you will likely need to go north of 8k rpm quite often. It's almost easier than trying to build a breather system for that much HP :)
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby chaloux » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:14 am

Holy shit that is our old car. I drove it for a few months, it used to be silver. Actually, that's the car in my signature picture! Then my sister painted it blue and took it to St. Louis. I think it blew a spark plug out which my brother in law helicoiled.

That's hilarious. Perhaps you've spoken with my dad, Marcel. Anyway, good to have you here! I don't have much more to chime in aside from what's already been said!
Matt

01 Allroad 6speed - RS4 clutch, catless downpipes, stuklr tune
04 Jetta TDI - DC stage I clutch/14lb fw
DEATH by rust - 96 Audi A6 Avant 2.5l TDI
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby PRY4SNO » Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:17 am

Chris is right, those are the purely 1k hp builds... I made that list to get you familiar with these cars and the common issues while doing a high horsepower build properly.

There are a couple 1k builds on S2forum as well, Jeffer's Sport quattro comes to mind.
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby Oldestof11 » Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:11 pm

chaloux wrote:Holy shit that is our old car. I drove it for a few months, it used to be silver. Actually, that's the car in my signature picture! Then my sister painted it blue and took it to St. Louis. I think it blew a spark plug out which my brother in law helicoiled.

That's hilarious. Perhaps you've spoken with my dad, Marcel. Anyway, good to have you here! I don't have much more to chime in aside from what's already been said!


Yes I have and he has been very helpful. The interior is dirty but near perfect.

Nice tidbit about the spark plug. Your dad and I were talking. This engine may have come out of the S2 from the guy I bought it from. He may have swapped the engines when his happened. A bunch of little things that don't seem right with an untouched engine. If it is helicoiled, then I'll know it's original.

Further reading, I am going to make this a 600hp build. For now. Still getting pistons, rods, and studs.
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby PRY4SNO » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:09 pm

I'm curious as to what made you pick a 1000hp target, and now a 600hp target?

What's your intended usage? How many rpm do you want high boost for? Do you plan to rev out the motor frequently, or are you looking for torque down low?

For example, when I spec'd my motor, I was aiming for a 4k rpm power band. With the stroker and EFR turbo I should be good from 3500 to 8500 rpm. My basic goals were to pull on B5S4 stage 3 builds, 60-130 mph time of 10 seconds or less, and in the high 10s to mid 11s down the 1/4 mile. Wherever the hp numbers land are, to me, irrelevant (besides barstool conversations). Although being able to casually rip off 600 bhp (and back it up) is pretty cool.
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby Oldestof11 » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:46 pm

I want a low 11s, high 10s car that's mildly street able. I was being stupid and thinking I needed that since that's what it takes in a heavy truck.

Then lots of late night reading I am seeing dry sumps, higher rpm, and some other things I don't remember. I fell asleep thinking I'll try out 600 and see how it goes.
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby PRA4WX » Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:16 pm

I think i saw this car on CL a while back.
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New guy, old car

Postby audifreakjim » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:15 am

That's a good goal, a pretty tried and true recipe around here. With the EFR and xona turbos these days, you can have a really street able car. Check out Josh's 2.5 tall dreck running an EFR8374 on here. It has a crazy powerband.
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby chaloux » Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:28 am

audifreakjim wrote:That's a good goal, a pretty tried and true recipe around here. With the EFR and xona turbos these days, you can have a really street able car. Check out Josh's 2.5 tall dreck running an EFR8374 on here. It has a crazy powerband.

Did we ever get a dyno of that thing?
Matt

01 Allroad 6speed - RS4 clutch, catless downpipes, stuklr tune
04 Jetta TDI - DC stage I clutch/14lb fw
DEATH by rust - 96 Audi A6 Avant 2.5l TDI
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES
DEAD :( - 1996 S6 mit TDI
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby Oldestof11 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:12 am

I see quite a few people running DMFORGED rods. How do they compare?

I also really want 1 place to buy from that has a good tech support line for the things they sell. I've been eyeing Iroz website a lot.
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby PRY4SNO » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:45 am

After talking with Hank about them, my understanding is the DMF rods are china made like 90% of the rest out there, but the final machine work is done in the USA. That's what I have in my stroker.
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby Oldestof11 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:55 am

PRY4SNO wrote:After talking with Hank about them, my understanding is the DMF rods are china made like 90% of the rest out there, but the final machine work is done in the USA. That's what I have in my stroker.


Ok. That makes me happy. I'm not so worried about Chinese metallurgy but their clearance when machining.

For example, On3 turbos are pretty much cast in China but the finally machining is done here state side. You have a cheap turbo that up has a higher than average reliability compared to other Chinese knockoffs.
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby audifreakjim » Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:40 pm

chaloux wrote:
audifreakjim wrote:That's a good goal, a pretty tried and true recipe around here. With the EFR and xona turbos these days, you can have a really street able car. Check out Josh's 2.5 tall dreck running an EFR8374 on here. It has a crazy powerband.

Did we ever get a dyno of that thing?


This was in his thread, I think it's the latest. Quick spool valve, EFR8374, tall deck stroker, ported head and cams
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby chaloux » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:58 pm

Oh yeah I remember that torque shelf now. Fucking amazing lol
Matt

01 Allroad 6speed - RS4 clutch, catless downpipes, stuklr tune
04 Jetta TDI - DC stage I clutch/14lb fw
DEATH by rust - 96 Audi A6 Avant 2.5l TDI
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES
DEAD :( - 1996 S6 mit TDI
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby mushasho » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:59 am

In before any talks of 07k commence...

Since you're only mentioning "HP" and not "whp", I gather you can get your 600hp rather easily while keeping many things stock. Keep in mind that peak power is one thing, how usable it'll be is another. The same way you adjusted your view on the power level desired you might also need to consider these motors are only 2.2L and their torque delivery differs from that of a big litre diesel truck. Either way a 480whp (600hp) UrS car is NOT a high 10second car with an 01e... The mule needed 600whp for that.

If you're not that picky about numbers and just want a fun UrS car, then don't let it bother you, even budget Holset builds are quite a hoot to drive...

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Re: New guy, old car

Postby Oldestof11 » Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:00 pm

I eventually want to hit 1000hp. Always been a dream of mine to hit have a 4 digit vehicle.

That torque flat line gives me funny feelings. :o

I know the difference in torque and HP. Hp is just a reference of torque.

I've ran into a couple small problems at home. Fixing those then some purchasing. Work has been grueling so the OT money will be nice.
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby Oldestof11 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:08 am

So....

What rod style should I buy? I-beam or H-beam?

If you go outside the Audi world, most choose an I-beam over an H-beam in the LS world because that is what their buddy said to do. With the offering in Cummins engines, H-beam is just as good as an I-beam BUT the I-beam is lighter.

I am >< this close to purchasing.
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby gabriel.b » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:18 pm

http://www.performancebyie.com/integrat ... -aan-5-cyl

Speaking of rods, I wanted to get opinions on these. The sales pitch gives me a warm fuzzy and the price point wont break the bank
I have similar goals, building for 5-600 whp now with plans to go bigger later (if the car doesnt scare me)
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby stin » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:01 pm

For 600hp about any china rod will do. Eagle, whatever they are named. FCP makes rifle drilled x-beam aswell. Machinist should check them tho. Quality isnt always constant.

for 1000whp compared to 600hp
-1000-5800rpm nothing happens
-dry sump ~2500 $$$
-mechanical lifters
-multiplate clutch+flywheel ~1500 $$$
-aftermarket pistons and pins ~1000 $$$
-the headwork + high duration cams ~1000+ $$$
-propably girdle and billet main caps ~700 $$$
-aftermarket ecu 1000+++ $$$
-big ass turbo 1000+++ $$$

One car from Sweden. http://www.eklundracing.se/faktaS4.html
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby loxxrider » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:04 pm

stin wrote:For 600hp about any china rod will do. Eagle, whatever they are named. FCP makes rifle drilled x-beam aswell. Machinist should check them tho. Quality isnt always constant.

for 1000whp compared to 600hp
-1000-5800rpm nothing happens
-dry sump ~2500 $$$
-mechanical lifters
-multiplate clutch+flywheel ~1500 $$$
-aftermarket pistons and pins ~1000 $$$
-the headwork + high duration cams ~1000+ $$$
-propably girdle and billet main caps ~700 $$$
-aftermarket ecu 1000+++ $$$
-big ass turbo 1000+++ $$$

One car from Sweden. http://www.eklundracing.se/faktaS4.html


I would say those numbers are relevant for 1000 hp, not 1000 whp.

For 1000 whp, you can multiply that entire 600 whp or 1000 chp build cost by at least two.

-1000-5800rpm nothing happens
-dry sump ~3500+ $$$
-Crank damper ~$1000+
-mechanical lifters (figured into the head cost)
-multiplate clutch+flywheel ~1500 $$$
-aftermarket pistons and pins ~1000 $$$
-the headwork + high duration cams ~6000+ $$$
-propably girdle and billet main caps ~700 $$$
-aftermarket ecu 1000+++ $$$
-big ass turbo 1600+++ $$$
-FRP crank ~3500 $$$
-Quality connecting rods ~$1500
-Hank intake and exhaust manifolds ~1150 and about the same for an intake manifold up to the job
-tall deck euro tdi block (don't kid yourselves, all the highest hp cars in Europe run them) ~$1200 (plus shipping)
-Add another set of injectors to what you already had for the 600 whp or 1000 hp build ~500
-Machine work on the block, etc., etc. the list goes on and on

In the end, we're talking 30k+ for any hope of a robust 1000 whp ur5cyl.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
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Re: New guy, old car

Postby stin » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:35 pm

Stock block and stock crank can reach those numbers. Same goes to tdi crank and block.
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